Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support?

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Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd as support? (max. 10 euro)

Poll ended at Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:50 am

Yes
22
73%
No
8
27%
 
Total votes: 30

Webunny
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:The definition/distinction between free and open in the FOSS context have been around for a while now and are well known within the FOSS community. Trying to apply a different meaning to them is only going to confuse people, nor is there much reason to. They're labels representing specific ideologies, nothing more.
They have been around for a while, true. Which is why I said that BSD is free as in 'free speech' as well, and, as a whole, is more free than the GPL, seen on itself. I'm not sure how one could come to another conclusion *unless* one used another definition of the word 'free'. Hence my confusion with your claim. ;)

How would you come to the conclusion the BSD licence is not free as in speech, while the GPL is?

See: http://www.matusiak.eu/numerodix/blog/i ... inability/

I largely concur with what's being said there. And if I may quote: "The BSD is no doubt a freer license, it gives you the right to decide what rights to bundle with the software. That is much closer to the absolute meaning of “freedom” than the GPL." That's what I said; one can not logically conclude differently. However, it also mentions the advantages in the sustainability of that freedom with GPL. It's an interesting read.
Z98
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Z98 »

Take it up with the FSF. They're the ones that are zealous about the definition of 'free' in the software context. The rest of the FOSS community goes along with it since it's a useful way to distinguish between different ideologies.
Webunny
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:Take it up with the FSF. They're the ones that are zealous about the definition of 'free' in the software context. The rest of the FOSS community goes along with it since it's a useful way to distinguish between different ideologies.
Will do! ;)

But seriously; apart from the FSF, what is your personal take on it? Don't you think the author (of the article I linked to) made some very logical/good points?
izntmac
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by izntmac »

i think the idea of selling React OS CDs is a good one. I would wait until it becomes more stable and would include some free and open source programs that work on React OS well. Something similar to a prepackaged Linux distribution such as Puppy Linux or Ubuntu but at an early stage of development.
Webunny
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Webunny »

izntmac wrote:i think the idea of selling React OS CDs is a good one. I would wait until it becomes more stable and would include some free and open source programs that work on React OS well. Something similar to a prepackaged Linux distribution such as Puppy Linux or Ubuntu but at an early stage of development.
Well, I think there is no problem selling alpha's, as long as one make clear it's mainly for testing purposes and not for daily use. For the targetgroup this is intended, this poses no problem. Also, let's not forget one of the objectives here is to give some additional support by aleternative means, and extra donations are most welcomed now, when the development is on it's most crucial point, not when a 1.0 version comes out.
DOSGuy
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by DOSGuy »

I resisted the urge to say anything because I thought the thread would fizzle out, and because I didn't want anyone to think that I was promoting my own product, but now I see about three new pages in the last few days, so this obviously isn't going to go away.

I've been making DVD copies of my website for 5 years. Originally it was in exchange for donations but, for legal reasons, the donation is now optional. Each DVD costs the following:

Shipping: $1.33 - $5.20
Bubble mailer: $2.02
Scratch-resistant DVD+R: $0.50
DVD label: $0.45
CD/DVD sleeve: $0.11
PayPal fees: $0.30 + 2.9% of donation
Toner, electricity, etc.: Unknown
Total : $4.41 to $8.28 plus PayPal fees

I even created a little calculator at http://www.classicdosgames.com/store.html that does the math for you based on the shipping destination and the amount of the PayPal donation. At the proposed $20 price, PayPal will take $0.88, making the cost somewhere between $5.29 and $9.16 if you use the same materials that I do. You can save ~$0.40 if you don't use a scratch-resistant disc, and another $0.45 if you print directly onto the CD surface instead of using an adhesive label, but your cost is still going to be in the $4 to $8 range. You really have to take care to ensure that the disc survives its travels, so a proper bubble mailer and scratch-resistant CD sleeve are important. (I chose a CD sleeve instead of a jewel case or DVD case because they might crack during transit and damage the disc.) I've only shipped 22 DVDs, but they've gone to three continents on the northern, southern, eastern and western hemispheres, and no one has ever complained that the disc was damaged during transport.

I hope this illuminates the cost of what you're trying to do. It's a great idea, but be aware that up to 45% of the donation will be eaten up by your expenses if you have to ship the disc to another country. I recommend against having a fixed price, and simply set a minimum donation amount so that people can donate $1000 if they want to. I write the amount of the donation right on the disc so that they can show off how much they paid for it (and, thus, how much they care about ReactOS).
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free BeOS, DOS, OS/2, and Windows games at RGB Classic Games.
Aeneas
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Aeneas »

"I write the amount of the donation right on the disc so that they can show off how much they paid for it."

THAT idea is genuinely BRILLIANT!!! ;)
Webunny
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Webunny »

DOSGuy wrote:I resisted the urge to say anything because I thought the thread would fizzle out, and because I didn't want anyone to think that I was promoting my own product, but now I see about three new pages in the last few days, so this obviously isn't going to go away.

I've been making DVD copies of my website for 5 years. Originally it was in exchange for donations but, for legal reasons, the donation is now optional. Each DVD costs the following:

Shipping: $1.33 - $5.20
Bubble mailer: $2.02
Scratch-resistant DVD+R: $0.50
DVD label: $0.45
CD/DVD sleeve: $0.11
PayPal fees: $0.30 + 2.9% of donation
Toner, electricity, etc.: Unknown
Total : $4.41 to $8.28 plus PayPal fees

I even created a little calculator at http://www.classicdosgames.com/store.html that does the math for you based on the shipping destination and the amount of the PayPal donation. At the proposed $20 price, PayPal will take $0.88, making the cost somewhere between $5.29 and $9.16 if you use the same materials that I do. You can save ~$0.40 if you don't use a scratch-resistant disc, and another $0.45 if you print directly onto the CD surface instead of using an adhesive label, but your cost is still going to be in the $4 to $8 range. You really have to take care to ensure that the disc survives its travels, so a proper bubble mailer and scratch-resistant CD sleeve are important. (I chose a CD sleeve instead of a jewel case or DVD case because they might crack during transit and damage the disc.) I've only shipped 22 DVDs, but they've gone to three continents on the northern, southern, eastern and western hemispheres, and no one has ever complained that the disc was damaged during transport.

I hope this illuminates the cost of what you're trying to do. It's a great idea, but be aware that up to 45% of the donation will be eaten up by your expenses if you have to ship the disc to another country. I recommend against having a fixed price, and simply set a minimum donation amount so that people can donate $1000 if they want to. I write the amount of the donation right on the disc so that they can show off how much they paid for it (and, thus, how much they care about ReactOS).
Well, you *are* a bit promoting your own product :P , but that's all-right. (Well, for me, at least). Thanks for your suggestions. The scratch-resistant layer I saw with many printing services too, but for an alpha-ros release, this seems a bit overkill. (Could be a neat idea for the 1.0 version, though, whenever we get there). I also don't see thermal printing on there. But, what surprises me most, is that the CD-sleeve would only be 0.11 $; this seems much less than what I've seen. Unless you're talking about a simple paper sleeve, and not a printed cardboard sleeve, which is my personal favourite, but is simply too expensive in small numbers.

In the small number I'm printing the relative cost is high, but it rapidly goes down when the amount is getting better. For this first general-repetition printing (if I get the permission of Ros) I think the profit for Ros would be about 5-6 euro, without shipping. But, in any case, every gain is a gain for Ros, and they can't incur losses on it, so I guess there's not much to complain about.

Hmm...speaking of which; wasn't the team-meeting today? any news, z98?
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jonaspm
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by jonaspm »

in the near future burn ReactOS BlurayDiscs :P
Z98
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Z98 »

A note for the future, expecting updates before the meeting even started won't get you results faster.

Simplistically, the final decision for your proposal was deferred to me, so long as I took into account the concerns outlined by the other team members. Basically, while we understand that you are proposing to pay for this out of your own pocket, we are decidedly uncomfortable with the level of control you want in selecting the manufacturer and the design, as regardless of what disclaimers you end up putting on, the end product is still representative of a product of this project and will end up reflecting back upon the project. As such, we would not be able to endorse or support your proposal in its current form. We are however open to negotiating further to work out the differences and I am fairly optimistic about resolving those differences. If you wish to continue pursuing this, you can contact me at ziliang.guo at reactos.org to further discuss this in private.

Regarding your other question, I read the post, but that guy basically shot himself in the foot the moment he tried to claim that BSD was "right." The two licenses seek to achieve very different objectives that are almost unrelated. The GPL seeks to ensure the continued availability of source code so that end users theoretically will always have control over or know what the software they use is doing. The BSD license seeks to reduce the burden of using code licensed under it while still ensuring the original coder retains copyright. These two issues have very little relation to each other, with the only similarity being the original release of code under either license allows people to actually see the source code. As such, which one you use depends on what your own personal beliefs/values are and who you are targeting your project for. I prefer the Apache or BSD license because I want my code to be used with minimal hassle by other people. But I am not going to claim that the BSD is somehow intrinsically more "right" than a license that has a completely different objective.
Aeneas
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Aeneas »

@ Z98

Thank you for the to-the-point explanation of the GPL and the BSD.

Out of curiosity - was that CD-thing the ONLY (publicly mentionable) thing you discussed or were there any other things as well? I mean, "how is the ReactOS project doing?"
DOSGuy
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by DOSGuy »

Webunny wrote:But, what surprises me most, is that the CD-sleeve would only be 0.11 $; this seems much less than what I've seen. Unless you're talking about a simple paper sleeve, and not a printed cardboard sleeve, which is my personal favourite, but is simply too expensive in small numbers.
A 100 pack of Dynex CD/DVD Sleeves cost me $10.82. There's a picture of one in the link I posted. They're just soft plastic sleeves with a scratch-resistant material inside. They can hold 2 discs (one in either side), and I use them to carry my own installation discs when I go on service calls. You can't print on them like a cardboard sleeve, but they're transparent, so you can see the beautifully printed disc inside! They work for me, and I think they could work for this project.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free BeOS, DOS, OS/2, and Windows games at RGB Classic Games.
Webunny
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Webunny »

Z98 wrote:A note for the future, expecting updates before the meeting even started won't get you results faster.

Simplistically, the final decision for your proposal was deferred to me, so long as I took into account the concerns outlined by the other team members. Basically, while we understand that you are proposing to pay for this out of your own pocket, we are decidedly uncomfortable with the level of control you want in selecting the manufacturer and the design, as regardless of what disclaimers you end up putting on, the end product is still representative of a product of this project and will end up reflecting back upon the project. As such, we would not be able to endorse or support your proposal in its current form. We are however open to negotiating further to work out the differences and I am fairly optimistic about resolving those differences. If you wish to continue pursuing this, you can contact me at ziliang.guo at reactos.org to further discuss this in private.

Regarding your other question, I read the post, but that guy basically shot himself in the foot the moment he tried to claim that BSD was "right." The two licenses seek to achieve very different objectives that are almost unrelated. The GPL seeks to ensure the continued availability of source code so that end users theoretically will always have control over or know what the software they use is doing. The BSD license seeks to reduce the burden of using code licensed under it while still ensuring the original coder retains copyright. These two issues have very little relation to each other, with the only similarity being the original release of code under either license allows people to actually see the source code. As such, which one you use depends on what your own personal beliefs/values are and who you are targeting your project for. I prefer the Apache or BSD license because I want my code to be used with minimal hassle by other people. But I am not going to claim that the BSD is somehow intrinsically more "right" than a license that has a completely different objective.
Well, you just said it was on thursday. And look at the hour at which I posted, and even than that last question was an edit and pasted even later on. So, 3/4 of the day already passed, so I thought to ask if there was any news. No harm in that, right?

As for the 'level of control'; well, I would suggest the level of control is directly proportional to what people do for the project, in this case, the printing-project. In essence, is this not the same with the development of Ros itself? A dev who is putting much effort into it, has more to say about the way the development should go than some poster who never even tested or run anything, but just talks about it. I don't see where any problems would lay anyway, except if one fears the quality would be so bad, it dilutes the 'brand' of Reactos, which is rather unlikely, if it's done with a professional printingservice, and based on the art bntser made, which you also said was great.

But regardless, I said I'm willing to listen to all logical and rational suggestions, and you seem to me to be rather reasonable, so I'm fairly confident we could clear out any different viewpoints too. So I guess it can't hurt to have a talk about it.
Aeneas
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Aeneas »

@ Webunny:

Why don't you just send out a sample of what you might want to sell? I think it will be then an easy matter to decide, is it "OK" or is it not. Z98 did not sound like he is going to interfere much, but that he does not want to accept uncertainty. And IF you want to do it, you WILL need to have an idea at least of THIS. After all, the looks of the much-compared Ubuntu-CD weren't a big secret, either...
Webunny
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Re: Poll: Would you buy a printed/packaged Ros-cd in support

Post by Webunny »

Aeneas wrote:@ Webunny:

Why don't you just send out a sample of what you might want to sell? I think it will be then an easy matter to decide, is it "OK" or is it not. Z98 did not sound like he is going to interfere much, but that he does not want to accept uncertainty. And IF you want to do it, you WILL need to have an idea at least of THIS. After all, the looks of the much-compared Ubuntu-CD weren't a big secret, either...
Well, I would say the 'general repetition' with the small amount of Ros-CD's of the 3.14 version IS my sample. If any insurmountable objections arise which I think have a point, I could still adapt things for the 3.15 version, which I plan to print in larger quantity. If negotiations go well with z98 and I can start with it, that is. (On itself, it's pretty weird I have to negotiate still further, since the premise already is that Ros gets all the gains and I take all the risk/losses for the alpha's and beta's). I know z98 seems to put a very high value on the 'brand' of Ros...but really, Ros is relatively unknown, and more importantly; I don't see why the brand would be diluted by making printed CD's of Reactos. A brand does not get diluted by it's own product, one may hope.

To give even a sample OF and BEFORE the 25 CD's of the 3.14 version - I've looked into that myself, actually, because I would like to know how it will pan out beforehand too (it's not an unreasonable wish on itself): it's not really feasible, or at least, wise. If I'm only ordering ONE single CD (as example) with all the things I want (thermal printing, DVD-case, flyer, cover, etc.), it would cost 27,5 euro. For that money, I can as well go straight for the 25 CD's; it's already equal to about 20% of that price.


About the looks itself; that ain't a secret. It's based on bntsers' art, which many, including z98, find really good. That's also why I don't see what the problem is, really. I don't quite get what the 'representing Ros' has to do with it; the quality can't be THAT bad, if it's what bntser has shown and it's thermal printing by a professional printingservice, that people are going to drop Ros for it (certainly not the testers for which these alpha-releases are meant). The only thing I could think of is maybe an explicit warning it's for testing purposes. For the rest; what is the problem, exactly? I can hardly imagine the 'brand' of Ros is going to be taken down the drain by simply making a thermal printed CD with Reactos on it. Why would the manufacturer matter in regard to the fear of "reflecting badly upon the project"? If he's delivering a good product: does it matter? Now, in regard to quality control, I can understand, but once that is ok, it really doesn't matter where in europe or the usa it's printed. Would Ros be ok if it's printed in Poland with service x, but suddenly become 'badly reflecting on Ros' if it's in France with service Y, even if the quality of the disc would be the same? That seems very unlikely to me. And why would the design of bntser reflect badly on the project, when all seem to highly praise it; again, I don't see any possible logical explanation.

But anyway, I've emailed z98, we'll see how it goes.



Edit: z98, about the author saying BSD is 'right', he didn't mean to say BSD is, in general, and in absolute terms 'right' (aka, the right licence for everyone, or for all purposes). this is the context in which he said it: "So who is right? Well, the BSD camp is. The BSD is no doubt a freer license, it gives you the right to decide what rights to bundle with the software." The conclusion that BSD is 'right', thus, pertains to the question of which one is freer, and that BSD is right to claim their licence is more free than that of the GPL. And it's for that that he gives the arguments (and his reasoning seems rather solid). Even if you look at the term 'free' as in 'speech', one can't come to another conclusion that BSD is, in that area, more free, since it let's you do more things with it than the GPL.

So he wasn't saying BSD is 'right' in the sense that it is the 'right' licence, but that BSD-folks are right in the claim that BSD is more free than the GPL.

To counterargument that, one would have to be able to demonstrate that the BSD gives you less, or at least no more freedom, than the GPL, which is difficult to do, since the GPL *DOES* impose more restrictions on you if you want to use it.

So, logically, I think the guy had a point.

Edit2: z98, did you get my email? (Just asking, not that I am expecting emailresponses before you even started the day or that I'll get your answers faster. ;) )
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