[ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. ...

Alex Ionescu ionucu at videotron.ca
Sat Jun 4 20:28:56 UTC 2011 

On 2011-06-04, at 3:43 PM, Adam wrote:

> Many got it pre-installed with their machines. Sure Windows 7 may run on pre-2007 machines if you bought it for over six thousand bucks, but that still doesn't resolve another issue (which i forgot to mention) - compatibility.

Windows 7 has about the same requirements as Windows XP if you do feature parity on both installs. Starting to refer to "over six thousand bucks" is absurd.

A P4 could run Win 7 fine, and those have been around since 2000....

> 
> Gotta love that philosophy "who cares about 2.5GB or 8GB" - the operating system starts doing it, and then all the programs follow. Remember MSN Messenger 1.0? That was only a few hundred kilobytes to few megabytes to install. Now its over 180MB to install.

That includes the size of the .NET framework and many other components -- the actual install is much smaller. Much of that is bitmap, picture data as well. Also, MSN Messenger 1.0 did not do things like webcam support, file transfers, etc... so I don't understand the point of the comparison?

> 
> Which application do you want to bloat today?
> 
> <ps... i think the thread has been derailed>

Yes, it has, I demonstrated how "upgrade to Win7" is not such a strange thing to ask, and instead of accepting defeat to my arguments, you are talking about 6000$ computers and MSN Messenger 1.0.

So I'll quit now.

--
Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

> 
> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 05:34:20 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ionucu at videotron.ca> wrote:
> 
>> Windows 7 runs on pre-2007 computers just fine, so that's irrelevant.
>> 
>> Windows 7 is available as a trial, and also for free for students, and also for only 99$ as an upgrade to XP, which came out a decade ago. So there's people who don't have 99$/10 years? How did they get XP then?
>> 
>> Windows 7 does not take up 15GB of disk space. A fresh install of Ultimate uses 8.64GB.
>> 
>> If 8.64GB is too much, you can use Windows 7 for Thin PCs, which is in CTP right now. It uses ~2.7GB of space for a fresh install, only slightly higher than XP's 1.5.
>> 
>> (Also, who the cares about 2.5 or 8GB when you can get a 1TB disk for 100$ these days?)
>> 
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Alex Ionescu
>> 
>> On 2011-06-04, at 3:03 PM, Adam wrote:
>> 
>>> I am aware of that. I was talking about Microsoft Windows and not ReactOS - and was responding to someone who suggested "Update to Windows Vista+, which has KTM."
>>> 
>>> Please read the messages that are being replied to as well, other than just the replies.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 04:53:43 +1000, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo <elhoir at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Adam... ReactOS will not be Win Vista/7 ;)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Adam <geekdundee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> And what about people with computers older than 2007 and/or people who do
>>>>> not want to (and/or cannot) pay $$$ for an upgrade and/or people who do not
>>>>> want to install an operating system that takes up 15GB of disk space?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 03:59:46 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ionucu at videotron.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Update to Windows Vista+, which has KTM.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2011-06-04, at 10:21 AM, Adam wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A number of times (eg. .NET install/AV install) I have had it happen at
>>>>>>> the end of the install. Then when I attempt to uninstall it there are errors
>>>>>>> produced regarding it (often not just after a fresh install of Windows; I
>>>>>>> mean after using the computer for some time - particularly after updating
>>>>>>> Windows Installer) then it makes the product difficult (if not impossible)
>>>>>>> to uninstall.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 00:07:44 +1000, Zachary Gorden <
>>>>>>> drakekaizer666 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And how many times does the database get corrupted?  I've never run into
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> and the conditions that would cause a corruption would equally screw any
>>>>>>>> other installer, since it would have to be a run that got interrupted
>>>>>>>> mid-install.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Adam <geekdundee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Next will you be suggesting for people to use MMC snapins as opposed to
>>>>>>>>> writing standalone applications, because it is shitty standalone
>>>>>>>>> applications that do things and not MMC?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You can use WIX/MSI to write shitty installers too if I am not
>>>>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>>>> I've seen brilliant NSIS/InstallShield installers and shitty MSI
>>>>>>>>> installers.
>>>>>>>>> And vice versa.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As an end-user I must say MSI also tends to piss me off, particularly
>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> the database gets corrupted and what not. Good concept though, but I
>>>>>>>>> question the way it is implemented. I have written about what I think
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> MSI in another mail so no need for me to repeat myself.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But what I am trying to suggest is that shitty installers will be
>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>> installers. You can write shitty installers in
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> SuperDuperUltraInstallerLanguageSoGoodItIsGuaranteedToMakeOtherInstallersShitTheirPantsAndGoBankrupt
>>>>>>>>> and they will still be shitty installers.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Jun 2011 23:49:26 +1000, Alex Ionescu <ionucu at videotron.ca>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Oh, I do believe shitty software/installers do this.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft's technologies do not, however.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So use WIX/MSI, not NSI/InstallShield.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-04, at 9:23 AM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm in charge of 40+ PCs running mostly XP at work. Believe me when I
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> tell you people do write their own code (or use the available API
>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly) for installers or some online activation bullshit. I
>>>>>>>>>>> came
>>>>>>>>>>> across several installers/apps that were unable to detect or use our
>>>>>>>>>>> proxy
>>>>>>>>>>> (we also use wpad for proxy autodiscovery via dns) and I always had
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> connect that PC directly to our gateway to make stuff install which
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> annoying as hell. I am not making this up, pay me a visit if you
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> K.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ionescu" <
>>>>>>>>>>> ionucu at videotron.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev at reactos.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 8:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees. ...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Again all of this is irrelevant: since I think you are a Linux user,
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> can understand why you are confused.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Windows, all HTTP communication is done by WinHTTP and/or
>>>>>>>>>>>> WinINET,
>>>>>>>>>>>> nobody writes their own custom socket code.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> WinHTTP/WinINET control the proxy settings for the machine. In fact,
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> you use Google Chrome on Windows (or Safari) and go to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> proxy/connection
>>>>>>>>>>>> settings, you will see "IE's" proxy connection dialog --  because
>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> settings/dialog are owned by the OS Library, not the individual
>>>>>>>>>>>> applications.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, the installer will use 100% the same settings as the web
>>>>>>>>>>>> browser, including the same protocol.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, as I stated, if the browser can download foo.exe, so will the
>>>>>>>>>>>> online
>>>>>>>>>>>> installer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 1:50 PM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever you use for downloading the installer has to be configured
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> connect throught the proxy and also to use its dns services for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> host name
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolving. if the installer itself isn't aware of the need for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proxy server
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or is not able to connect through socks or whatever the proxy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> uses) it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't be usually able to resolve the hostname it's trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> connect to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (depends on the exact network configuration). also the default
>>>>>>>>>>>>> route to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> internet would be missing or direct outgoing connections would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which they usually are otherwise you wouldn't be forced to use the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proxy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> server in the first place) so the traffic generated by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> installer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't have any means to reach its destination.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to derail the discussion and I apologize for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shut up next time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kamil
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ionescu" <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ionucu at videotron.ca
>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "ReactOS Development List" <ros-dev at reactos.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 7:03 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since online installers use HTTP, and the user got the installer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTTP, what would a proxy server change?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 12:33 PM, Kamil Hornicek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't want to spam this discussion but I have to.. What every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other software company also does is refusing to believe someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behind a proxy server. If you go this way, please make sure the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't need a direct connection. Also online installers are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generally a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major pain in the ass if you don't provide an offline installer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Ionescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: ReactOS Development List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 5:56 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ros-dev] 1294 [dreimer] Fix clean for cmake trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why separate installers for x64/ARM?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just do what every software company this side of the century
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does: a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 400kb installer which lets you select the packages you want, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> downloads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex Ionescu
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2011-06-03, at 11:38 AM, Zachary Gorden wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spoke with Amine and Daniel.  I've agreed to the lesser evil of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bundling the FULL cmake.  Reasons are if we want the BE to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flexible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to be used for more than just building ROS, we can't gimp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cmake with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the belief that no one will need the things we didn't include.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is again
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on Windows.  I remain uninvolved with decisions about the Linux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Colin Finck <colin at reactos.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Timo Kreuzer <timo.kreuzer at web.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My vote on this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CMake: bundle it, optional on installation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x64/arm: create individual installers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * CMake: bundle it, go for the (minimal) version without an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> installer. It's nothing "exotic" to install after all, just put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it together
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the other utilities in RosBE.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * x64/arm: If build tool sizes are staying like this, create
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual installers. Just for testing, I'll try an x86/x64
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multilib build
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Binutils and GCC though, would be nice to know how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smaller it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compared to separate x86 and x64 compilers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So in general, I agree with Timo :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Colin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Ros-dev at reactos.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Ros-dev mailing list
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>>>>>> http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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