[ros-dev] list macros roundup

[Gunnar Dalsnes]

Alex Ionescu wrote:
> Gunnar Dalsnes wrote:
> 
>> The list macros are widely used in both Wine (4 different macros) and 
>> in the linux kernel 
>> http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au/~dsw/public-files/kernel-docs/kernel-api/r802.html 
>> (i counted 16 different list walking macros).
> 
> 
> I hope the Linux Kernel won't ever become an example of how an NT 
> micro-kernel shoudl be written..

Using macros or not really has nothing to do with the kernel design... 
Its about the people who code.

> 
>>
>> A googled for a while looking for similar discussions about using such 
>> macros or not, but found none...
> 
> 
> Really? Let me point you to some of the famous threads by our Microsoft 
> friends, including some of their most distinguished engineers:
> 
> http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/2004/12/01/273160.aspx
> 
> "
> 
>     Larry: You said Macros work to hide the complexity and say so like
>    it is a bad thing.. ? Excuse me but I thought that was the POINT of
>    using a Macro..
> 
> Actually, in the world in which I live (writing systems programs that 
> exist in the working set of hundreds of millions of users), hiding 
> complexity is a very, very bad thing.
> 
> You need to be VERY careful whenever you do something that hides 
> complexity, because it's likely to come back and bite you on the behind."
> 
> Also: "Rules of software engineering" touches on this:
> http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/2004/04/06/108686.aspx
> 

This is not directly related to using list macros. I hate generic 
banning: "gotos considered harmful". bah... Also, for being careful, id 
say that the fact that Linux and Wine have used list macros extensively 
for ages and it works well, thats a pretty good pointer.

> 
>>
>> Seems like people who hate macros are the people who are drawn to 
>> reactos.
> 
> 
> Seems like people who hate macros are the people who are drawn to NT, 
> too. I'm glad 99.9% of the developers here are on that line of though.
> 
>> I dont know what this means but it surely is weird. I hope it doesnt 
>> mean that reactos coders are too stupid to learn macros;-P
> 
> 
> Yeah, go tell Larry Osterman he's too stupid to learn a macro.

The problem with MS and macros i can guess is: for foss projects, people 
who code are devoted to what they do and they only do it for fun (and 
recognizion). For a big corp that pays people to code, the devotion is 
probably not that high (not the fun either) and the flow of programmers 
is _much_ higher (not necesarely in and out of ms, but between different 
projects). Thats why i understand Larry. He want to protect the source 
agains incompetent programmers. I guess you could say that we have the 
same problem, we could get new incompetent members? Well, we can kick 
them hard and long, and also we monitor commits and we review the code.

> 
>>
>> Well, at least i tried. Better luck next time (/me pat self on shoulder)
> 
> 
> Read Larry's posts. Read them again. Read the comments by other MS 
> engineers. If you still think hiding complexity is a good thing, God 
> help you.

Just because we are cloning thei OS doesnt mean we should clone their 
opinions, meanings and thoughts. There might still be hope for you thou;-P

G.

> 
>>
>> G.
>>
> Best regards,
> Alex Ionescu
> 
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