Ideas - new kickstarter?

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Aeneas
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Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Aeneas » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:40 pm

Dear Forum Members,

the kickstarter project has filed. So far, so bad - so what... ReactOS can start a new one. I propose the collection of ideas of what can be done. The "Thorium" remote application service idea did not materialize. But there may be OTHER ideas, and maybe we can find something that can inspire the developers for their next try. WE are "the public", after all. The geeks that WILL FUND this. Why would the devs have to think "what we might like", if we could just TELL them what we might like?

I see the following in kickstarter: a project gets funded, if it has a PRECISE "channeling" of money to performance, and that appeals to the masses through.... We are talking of "the masses of geeks", because no conservative person with contempt for computers is going to look around in kickstarter.

Following this, I kindly invite you to post your ideas.

------

My own idea: "sell compatible computers".

1. Try to sell a specific mini-board (with webcam and whatever else): e.g., the Intel Edison.

ReactOS has practically "no" system requirements. It would run easily on a Raspberry Pi, however, the Pi has an ARM processor and that is not ReactOS' primary target. However, Intel already trying to strong-arm its way into the market, so far unsuccessfully with the Intel Galileo, and in the future most likely with the Intel Edison. For all I read, Intel Edison is more or less "the same thing as Galileo, just smaller", so a Galileo could be acquired NOW, and then in the future, when the Edison becomes available, the you will have a working system from day 1.

EDIT: the Galileo is unsuccessful, cause it costs 75 EUR. But hardware will become cheaper, so if you direct your efforts to the Edison already, then when you are done, I expect Intel's Edison to cost FAR lower.

2. Make it "ONE hardware".

ReactOS so far has the problem that it does NOT run in any stable manner "across machines" - yet when you have virtualisation, which works better, the concept of needing an OS itself becomes very weak. - But if you choose ONE board, with ONE set of peripherals (which you SELL due to kickstarter), the user can be CERTAIN, that what he buys will work. A bit like Apple does it, just for a small fraction of the price.

3. This product is (and has to be!) user-friendly.

You buy a board, you have an SD-card with ReactOS, everything is pre-installed, you do not need "an old computer", "an old harddisk" or "installing a Virtual machine". None of this - you buy it, you use it!

4. Consider corporate or governmental sponsorship.

Intel is trying to enter "the internet of things", and with a windows-compatible system WITHOUT costs of a Windows license, you may deliver just the thing Intel wants. You can "look at your stuff" in a familiar environment (hook the box up to a monitor, keyboard and mouse), yet at the same time, keep the price low.

Other imaginable markets are "the third world". When you have 10$ / month available, you will not buy a 500$ computer... but you just MIGHT buy a 50$-computer for the whole family. Countries India is still gaining on the IT-sector and their average person is definitely not rich. Your device could promise opportunities. "You want to support windows systems - here, we have a legal clone."

5. Prerequisites:

a. - You need stability on the chosen platform, hardware-wise in all respects, software-wise at least for the chosen set of "officially supported applications".

b. - You need the networking utilities and services to communicate with the box. Often times, these boxes shall "look at wildlife", provide home surveillance, remote control of heating, the garage, whatever, surveillance of babies, feeding fishes, WHATEVER. They will not really be desktop machines. People will not really THAT much expect to use MS Office on them, but they WILL expect to be able to connect with them.

c. - Prepare a suitable set of software, best - preinstall it. Have a "usual set of desktop software", AND a selection of "geeky software". E.g., something to control I/O pins with simple shell commands, something to send camera pictures to some remote system, something to show stuff on an LED, record and transmit audio, play audio... This sort of thing.

d. - Optimal: have an Android and an iOS app to control the device remotely.

e. - Make a presentation, SHOW the product in a prototype. I have seen SEVERAL successful kickstarters, including somewhat absurd ones as this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/81 ... ge-compute

It is absurd because a much better and cheaper product already exists:

https://www.olimex.com/Products/Duino/Duinomite/

Another one I have shown elsewhere - which shows the power of a good presentation and clear goals - is this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/69 ... the-raspbe

f. - Last but not least: clarify your legal situation, i.e., which entity can actually do this. This is clearly commercial activity.

Thank you for reading.

Black_Fox
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Black_Fox » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:14 pm

Aeneas wrote:and with a windows-compatible system WITHOUT costs of a Windows license
As is repeated through this forum, Windows license is expensive for individuals and small to middle companies. Big and huge companies have bulk licensing available which may allow for drastic decrease in licence price.

Aeneas
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Aeneas » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:07 pm

Black Fox, did you even read what I was writing about? :roll:

I was writing about THIS:

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ ... dison.html

Useable as a prototype would be THIS:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/29 ... l_galileo/

(And I was very obviously NOT writing about this:

http://www.intel.de/content/www/de/de/s ... ducts.html )

Webunny
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Webunny » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:57 pm

You can't start a new kickstarter right after you already made one; it will never succeed. Certainly if it's the same kind of project.

As I've said numerous times by now (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12962&start=30#p105695), I think they made some strategic mistakes. However, I'm well aware it's easier said than done, and I also don't see the use in beating a dead horse. So I'm not overly critiquing the devs from trying this project, and as a learning experience it certainly will have had its use. I remain of the opinion, though, that there were two major obstacles in achieving their goal.

1) First and foremost, it was the basic idea of going for a commercial entity under another name. It was far from clear what and how the deal/connection was with Reactos, certainly at the start (aka, communication). And even afterwards when it did become more clear, it was, imho, a strategic mistake to go for a commercial cloud-based venture with a name that was unfamiliar (and often used for completely different projects, which were also on Kickstarter). This concept could only be successful if specific (external) companies or individuals who were interested in exactly those kind of cloud-services would want to invest heavily in it. But for that to happen, one would also have to communicate and attract the attention of such specific companies or individuals, and concentrate advertising efforts on that kind of target audience. This did not happen, or not enough, in any case. With the consequence the niche market for this sort of service didn't know about it, and consequently didn't invest. Those who WERE aware of the kickstarter project were mostly people from...well, here. Reactos fans. But Reactosfans wanting to donate and support ROS have little interest in a commercial cloud-service (one or two exemptions not withstanding).

Thus, I think they did not concentrate and engaged enough the target audience which might have been interested in the commercial cloud-service concept, and at the same time, they alienated the usual fanbase which just wants to support ROS. Matter in case: except for the last fluke of 20000 bucks being donated by one person, it had about the same amount raised as the donationbar in 2012. Meaning: most of those who usually donated, donated there, now. But with the disadvantage that it wasn't recognisable as such, because no-one knows the name 'Thorium' in relation to ROS. Though true, the regulars knew eventually, and the link also began to become clear for the rest after some time and extra media-exposure. That said, as name/brand-recognition, it wasn't really a smart move, imho. I've noted in my former post(s) that one would have been better off just making a project under the name 'Reactos' as a support to make Reactos better. But this was refuted by the devs, mostly on the grounds it either was problematic because there was no 'defined goal' and because it would be a 'one shot'. Neither arguments I found convincing, since a defined goal is a goal as YOU define it (aka, you can define it as a sponsorship for going to 0.4 with a set of applications you promise WILL work on it, nothing more, nothing less), and as far as the 'one-shot' is concerned, even back then I said it was better to have a one shot than no shot at all (aka, the premise seemed to be that it was a 'continuous stream of income' vs a 'one-shot', while imho (and now in reality) it was between a 'one shot' and 'nothing'. It seems now - in hindsight, granted, but I DID say it in front as well - that I wasn't being negativistic, but rather realistic.

Besides, the 'one-shot' is also dependent on how you define your initial goal. Clearly, if you define it as getting to 0.4, you can again make a project on kickstarter for 0.5 after the first 'one-shot'. Thus, one can regularly make a 'one-shot' which in practise means you can have a fairly stable income as well, even though it's not 'continuous' in the strict sense.


2)Secondly, I think the communication and campaign wasn't done all that well. I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm not saying I could have done it better, I'm just saying this as an objective observation. Even here, on the forum, we knew about it AFTER the facts, by some poster who noticed it. Not by an official announcement, not by building up some hype (which, like it or not, often can be very successful when it takes off), not by mass coverage of the media. What media exposure there was was relative little, and long after the project was already started. Also, the campaign itself wasn't really that engaging or well-thought out in front, but for that I refer to the many comments about it by people responding on the Kickstarter-site itself. There are many useful tips there, for future tries, if you ask me. It even can go as simple as making sure you have a 1 dollar reward too, not because of the reward, but because that makes more people go for donating higher amounts. There are even some video's out on the Net how to make your kickstarter project more successful, or at least have more chance of it becoming successful. These are often simple things, or psychological things, or technical-calculated things, but it helps to get to your goal, and that's what counts. I don't think anyone of the devs made a good analysis and preparation in such way before starting the project on Kickstarter.

Of course, it's true it's less evident to go for little 'rewards' like mugs and T-shirts as many other open-source projects do, because...well, we don't have slogans nor mascots...nor a shop neither, in fact. And those things don't suit a commercial cloud-service neither, it suits a non-commercial fan-based sponsoring of an open-source project. The two are a bit antithetic, in fact.


Conclusion: I wouldn't start another kickstarter project until at least 6 months have passed, and maybe a year. In the mean time, we should open up a new donationbar on the site, so people can donate in the more usual way. And for the future I would start with some drastically different approach - otherwise, it will end in the same way - which, imho, would mean something that is non-commercial and with the same recognisable name/brand as we're used to (aka, my proposal of sponsoring a set, defined, and limited goal of a ROS version). And a thought-out campaign, in front, keeping tabs on the suggestions made by fans now, and for a monetary goal that is a bit more realistic, say, 60000 euro/dollar, instead of 120000. Yes, that's half, but it's feasible, and it would still be double of what we get on average now. Getting 'only half' of an imaginary and not-reached monetary goal would still beat the latter, me thinks. When the goal is met, in, say 6 months to one year, you do a new 'one-shot' for the next iteration, etc. It's true that I can say this easily, and nothing guarantees that it would pan out neither, granted. But we have to come up with some plan (B) after this one failed, and I there is no use crying over spilled milk. If something is not successful, one can always try another thing, after all.
Last edited by Webunny on Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Black_Fox
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Black_Fox » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:03 pm

Aeneas wrote:Black Fox, did you even read what I was writing about? :roll:
Of course I did, though it's nice of you to add links for those that don't yet know what Edison and Galileo is. I'm just saying that nowadays nobody is going to be converted by the sole argument of Windows licence price. Also, Intel comes with a fanfare after Raspberry Pi quietly covered the market since two years ago. Let's hope the miniature dimensions of Edison help it fit in another part of the market.

Aeneas
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Aeneas » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:40 pm

Well, license costs for LARGER machines, indeed, are not significant - mostly, not even to the private individual, particularly when put into relation to a 2000-EUR-machine (and even to a 500-EUR-machine).

But put into relation to a 50- or 20-EUR-"machine", the Windows license suddenly becomes intolerable unless you have some "unlimited installs"-scheme. I envision the Edison to become such a machine, as the hefty 75-pricetag on the Galileo really stopped it from succeeding.

In the past, btw, such machines have existed, too, but they seem too limited for ReactOS:

http://www.alix-board.de/

Moreover, they are too expensive. - With 512 MB RAM, on the other hand, things start to look different.

For Intel Edison, it is, I dare say, PRECISELY ReactOS that is interesting:

- Realistically, your main OSes are Windows (+ ReactOS), DOS, Linux and BSD. DOS and BSD is mostly an enthusiast's story, what really remains is Windows and Linux.

- With Linux, Intel will have difficulties: you get Linux on the RasPi, AND you have a better community - so "why pick Edison"?

- Windows "kills" you with its license. You cannot pay 100 EUR for a license for a board that costs, say, 30 EUR. Impossible. - AND PRECISELY HERE I see our niche: here, the license cost matters enough to be significant, and while ReactOS is a geeky project, such boards are geeky products for geeky people by their very nature!

milon
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by milon » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:59 pm

Quick note on the Edison board idea: Intel's Edison uses UEFI (source http://uefidk.intel.com/projects/quark?page=1) and isn't trivial or priority at the moment (source https://www.reactos.org/node/767).

Webunny
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Webunny » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:49 am

Aeneas wrote:Well, license costs for LARGER machines, indeed, are not significant - mostly, not even to the private individual, particularly when put into relation to a 2000-EUR-machine (and even to a 500-EUR-machine).

But put into relation to a 50- or 20-EUR-"machine", the Windows license suddenly becomes intolerable unless you have some "unlimited installs"-scheme. I envision the Edison to become such a machine, as the hefty 75-pricetag on the Galileo really stopped it from succeeding.

In the past, btw, such machines have existed, too, but they seem too limited for ReactOS:

http://www.alix-board.de/

Moreover, they are too expensive. - With 512 MB RAM, on the other hand, things start to look different.

For Intel Edison, it is, I dare say, PRECISELY ReactOS that is interesting:

- Realistically, your main OSes are Windows (+ ReactOS), DOS, Linux and BSD. DOS and BSD is mostly an enthusiast's story, what really remains is Windows and Linux.

- With Linux, Intel will have difficulties: you get Linux on the RasPi, AND you have a better community - so "why pick Edison"?

- Windows "kills" you with its license. You cannot pay 100 EUR for a license for a board that costs, say, 30 EUR. Impossible. - AND PRECISELY HERE I see our niche: here, the license cost matters enough to be significant, and while ReactOS is a geeky project, such boards are geeky products for geeky people by their very nature!
With smaller machines the pricetag of a legit Windows becomes a big part (in comparison) of the total amount something costs, true. But we're talking < 300 euro, then. While possible, it would also mean optimising ROS for a very specific set of hardware; aka specialising. This might not be such a good idea, certainly not at the start of it's development (and we're still in alpha stage) since it's supposed to be a generally usable, 100% windows clone (aka, generic, working on all PC's). The time you spend on optimising for one specific set of HW would go to the detriment of other things that could be done. Maybe that could be compensated by what you gain (financially), but for that to happen one would have to have some kind of deal *with* that specific HW-vendor to start with. Otherwise, one might end up wasting a lot of time optimising for some piece of HW that either ain't popular enough or has already a myriad of other options for it - and leave you empty handed.

I think my proposal is a bit more realistic (also on the short run): I would raise the donationbar again for the time being, and then, in 6 months, or better even a year, try it again on Kickstarter (or some equivalent) but now as a non-commercial thing directly under the name of Reactos, and go for 60000 euro/dollar.

AmineKhaldi
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by AmineKhaldi » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:28 pm

I admit I did not read the topic (when I see tons of text that illustrates more than one point, without using sections and lists and summaries...etc, I get into a tl;dr situation, and I'm sorry for that) but I can point you to the frontpage.

Webunny
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Webunny » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:36 pm

AmineKhaldi wrote:I admit I did not read the topic (when I see tons of text that illustrates more than one point, without using sections and lists and summaries...etc, I get into a tl;dr situation, and I'm sorry for that) but I can point you to the frontpage.
Thanks for the pointer, though on the frontpage it really is pretty vague; it's basically a 'thank-you and stay-tuned'. It's not something that quenches the questions of posters here, nor does it give any input on the suggestions given.

As for your other remark: I'm not sure I follow you. The parent poster *had* his text divided in clear paragraphs, each marked with different consecutive numbers (aka, 'a list'). I too, made a rather well defined text, with clear paragraphs, a heading, a division into the two main points (aka; 'sections'), and a conclusion at the end.

I'm sorry to say this, but it doesn't come any more clear than this, in the forum. And actually, it usually is far less structured. Then again, I'm not understanding how this would be problematic, compared to the at random talks (or wading through irc-talks) on irc; there it is even FAR LESS structured: it's just 'direct' talk written down, and even far further from any structure or list than anything on the forum.

Maybe you are not really suited for a forum but more for irc, as you hinted at yourself in the past, because I don't think there is a problem here with a lack of structure in this case, but rather the fact that it simply contains a lot. But that's the advantage of a forum: one can take ones' time and re-read things that weren't clear. Because even if it's much to read and one expected shorter posts; surely one is able to read something the length of a (very) small essay? But anyways, everyone has it's fortes and his weaknesses I presume, and for instance I'm not to keen on the irc-system with its at random talk written down as it goes, just like you're not really into posts of a forum, and certainly not the larger ones, if you go all tl;dr on even these sort of posts - which aren't exactly gigantic nor unstructured, for forum-posts.

Z98
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Z98 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:12 am

1) You will never see any non-vague answer to questions related to PR plans. Any such campaigns follow a timetable determined internally to guarantee that all the pieces are actually ready before it is revealed. To say yes or no openly would tip our hand before that time. So all of you might as well stop trying to ask whether this or that suggestion was heeded or seen. The only answer you'll ever get is, "we saw it, no further comment" or variations thereof. If what you people want is some kind of vindication or confirmation that you were listened to, the only form you'll get it is seeing whether an idea of yours made it into a campaign. At that point you're free to assume whatever you want, regardless of whether it was actually you who originated the idea or if it was internally proposed before you ever posted it.

2) Generally a really long post on the forum falls into two categories. The first category involve posts that are really dense with actual information, where there is little to no repetition of points or data. These posts are long because they have a lot to say. I don't recall seeing more than maybe a handful of posts in that category during my entire time on this forum. The second category involves posts that have a very high noise to info ratio. They tend to meander along either taking a really long time to state the actual point or never actually getting to the point because the writer forgot to put it in or thought he or she did because surely everyone can understand what he or she was thinking. Then there's the constant repetition of previously stated positions and assertions, as if repetition somehow makes something a fact. This category is what I see most often on the forum and I've been tuning it out for a while now, instead relying on reading responses that pick out the salient points.

Webunny
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Webunny » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:46 pm

Z98 wrote:1) You will never see any non-vague answer to questions related to PR plans. Any such campaigns follow a timetable determined internally to guarantee that all the pieces are actually ready before it is revealed. To say yes or no openly would tip our hand before that time. So all of you might as well stop trying to ask whether this or that suggestion was heeded or seen. The only answer you'll ever get is, "we saw it, no further comment" or variations thereof. If what you people want is some kind of vindication or confirmation that you were listened to, the only form you'll get it is seeing whether an idea of yours made it into a campaign. At that point you're free to assume whatever you want, regardless of whether it was actually you who originated the idea or if it was internally proposed before you ever posted it.

2) Generally a really long post on the forum falls into two categories. The first category involve posts that are really dense with actual information, where there is little to no repetition of points or data. These posts are long because they have a lot to say. I don't recall seeing more than maybe a handful of posts in that category during my entire time on this forum. The second category involves posts that have a very high noise to info ratio. They tend to meander along either taking a really long time to state the actual point or never actually getting to the point because the writer forgot to put it in or thought he or she did because surely everyone can understand what he or she was thinking. Then there's the constant repetition of previously stated positions and assertions, as if repetition somehow makes something a fact. This category is what I see most often on the forum and I've been tuning it out for a while now, instead relying on reading responses that pick out the salient points.
1)Which is exactly what I described here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13074#p106634 (last paragraph). I don't know if or why you don't realise this, but what you describe there is exactly what is called NOT engaging the public/fans. Tip our hand...to what? What catastrophe would befall ROS if you guys engaged with your public and discussed openly the suggestions provided? Would it hurt ROS to give feedback to those that made suggestions and proposals? Is even recognising the individual points made or to give any but the most vague answers too much asked? This sort of lackluster, indifferent response is EXACTLY why the popularity of ROS (also social-media wise) isn't growing much. It's purely reasoned from the perspective of a dev: let's do everything behind closed doors, let's not discuss anything with the fans (aka; it's a waste of time/resources), etc. This is always seen from the stance of the developer who isn't all that interested in engaging with followers/fans/populace (and, in contrast, is more interested in coding), but it's NOT a good thing from the stance of PR. IMHO, it really is one of the pivotal points why ROS, as a community, isn't making much headway.

What is needed is a paradigm-shift where talking and giving feedback to people on the forum and fans in general is NOT seen as a waste of time, where one DOES the trouble of reading texts even if it's not in the form of clear lists, where you are NOT paranoia when discussing things openly with your public (A discussion of patents? Let's close it, they're not lawyers and it could be dangerous! A discussion about proposals for what to do? Let's not say anything or give any feedback; we'll follow our own timetable and we don't want to read any lengthy posts about it anyway. Etc.)

I might point out that a forum IS for discussing things openly, and not behind closed doors. Discussions are therefore not per sé succinct, summarised lists of points one agrees with and are easily digestible - anyone coming from IRC should *certainly* know this. If devs don't want to bother responding or even reading the posts, one should ALSO not complain the community and popularity of ROS isn't all that great. I'm well aware reading and responding to posts can be tiring, but that's what PR is (also) about. Basically, you don't want to give your public the impression you are not interested in what they say, you don't want to engage in a discussion with them, and you feel that it's actually a waste of time/dangerous/tipping your hand/etc. to discuss anything with them. And this is often a bit the feeling we get here. EVEN if it would all be true, it STILL wouldn't be a good thing to do from a (professional) PR stance.

2)I agree there is repetition sometimes. To some extent this is unavoidable in a free discussion, since people want to express their thoughts, and certainly if they think getting no response (or getting an irrelevant answer) is due to them making it not clear enough. Again (look, I'm repeating once again too ;-) ): a discussionboard or forum is NOT only meant to only get summarised versions of lists; instead, one can expect any interested party to read up on the things being said even if it's not in a format he wants the most.

Of course, no-one is obliged to read any posts, don't get me wrong. But from the PR-section one would expect *some* effort in reading posts, to be frank, certainly if it's potential important stuff, like suggestions for what to do after the kickstarter-campaign. In any case, this is how a forum works, just like IRC works in another way (and even less structured, imho). If one does not want any such posts, maybe it wasn't necessary to provide a forum in the first place? Or, indeed, one can just ignore posts on the forum, or close them down, or not engage...but what is PR for, then? It's one or the other, imho: if you don't engage/react/discuss/give feedback to your public, you CAN NOT complain at the same time about the community being not engaged enough, or ROS being to unpopular/unknown. Indifference breeds indifference. If you don't want to read or react to posts of your fans because they're too tl;dr to your taste, then don't lay the fault at them for not providing clear lists of bite-sized chunks: it's as much your fault for not wanting to do the trouble of reading it. For instance I DO read most of the posts, even the longer ones. But then again, I don't have the preconceived notion that it's a waste of time to read them, which is the basic misconception here. Even though it often IS not all that fruitful a discussion in every thread, I realise that it's still important to engage from a social (and PR) stance.

Let's not beat around the bushes; this is what it really amount too. Discussing a mascot? A waste of time! Discussing a motto? A waste of time! Reading posts that are a bit longer and might have repetition? A waste of time! Discussing certain topics with the fans openly? A waste of time/dangerous/tipping our hand/etc.!

This is NOT a good way to deal with your public, from a PR stance, that much must be clear. Maybe from a dev's standpoint when you have limited resources, yes. But not from a PR standpoint.

PS.when I say 'you', I don't mean you personally z98, only more general as 'the other party' (aka, mostly the devs).
Last edited by Webunny on Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Marzz
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Marzz » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:15 pm

I try to keep up with the forum just out of curiosity and for what it's worth, I also skip these long and uninformative posts.. Making one's point in a few sentences is probably more effective if you would like to have some influence on the ROS-direction anyway. As for me, I look forward to the new campain and I liked Webunny's idea about looking further into EU tax-deductions!

Webunny
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Webunny » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:50 pm

Marzz wrote:I try to keep up with the forum just out of curiosity and for what it's worth, I also skip these long and uninformative posts.. Making one's point in a few sentences is probably more effective if you would like to have some influence on the ROS-direction anyway. As for me, I look forward to the new campain and I liked Webunny's idea about looking further into EU tax-deductions!
You have all sorts of people, and some like longer posts, and some don't. And some of those posts are uninformative, and some ARE very informative. But that's not the issue here. As a PR person, one isn't representing only oneself (and ones' own likings) in this matter. If you want to do PR good, you have to do the trouble EVEN if you personally don't like some parts of it much, that's what I'm getting at.

As an analogy, it would be the same like a doctor who complains about festering wounds that smell. Well, of course they smell. And of course one would prefer them not to, and only handling easy palatable things which don't really stress their abilities, and conform to the own wishes.But that is never the case. From a doctor, you expect him to be a doctor, EVEN if wounds stink or he doesn't like certain parts of his profession. That's what being professional is all about. You don't let your own preferences prevail, you do as is expected of your function, point. And this is also expected from your clients; at least *I* would expect a doctor to also be professional in his behaviour even if it's the less likeable things of his profession that comes up.

I think the same goes for the devs, or at least, the devs that have taken on the position of PR, or want to engage the public (or complain about them being too small or not active enough). If you want to be professional about it, you HAVE to do things you don't like, and you HAVE to reason from the stance of engaging your public and thus bettering the community, instead of using the stance of a dev who considers anything that isn't conform the format one wishes it to be a waste of time. Basically saying "It might be interesting, but I won't read it because it isn't handed to me on a silver platter." is not a very professional way of going about things, however you look at it. If you have that mentality, then don't complain afterwards that you missed some valuable suggestions, or the public isn't engaged enough, etc. The communication between devs and fans/users is not a one-way direction, but a two way direction. As long as this isn't realised, the (engagement of the) community of ROS will never grow substantially. You are either part (or feel as if you are) or not of a project, but you can't expect both at he same time. The engagement of the community towards ROS is directly proportional to the engagement ROS (devs, and certainly PR) has towards its userbase and fans. The fact that this is still not seeped through, I find a bit baffling. It's also one of the reasons, imho, why the community isn't as big as it could be, and consequently, why we don't get a target like a 120000 dollar campaign on Kickstarter to succeed.

Z98
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Re: Ideas - new kickstarter?

Post by Z98 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:01 am

1) What good does it do the project when someone goes off halfcocked because their imagination ran wild and they decided that an offhand comment or reply from a team member means something more than it does? What good does it do the project when said person comes back and accuses the project of lying to him/her because the project didn't do what they thought the project was going to? The consequences of past such incidences are why only three or four devs even look at the forum anymore. The rest pretty much refuse to interact at all unless I or Victor drag one of them in to address specific issues, because they're sick and tired of the disrespect and whining that often happens. And every time I or Victor or the other moderators think that we've instilled some level of civility on the forum, enough so that developers might be tempted to come back, things go down the crapper again because people come in complaining about how developers or the project won't do things the way THEY want, which further alienates developers. And those that are thick skinned enough to deal with this kind of crap deal with it directly, but speaking their mind without reservation about their opinion of the whiners, which causes even more whining as "feelings are hurt" and of course the developer is blamed for not doing what someone else wants them to do. So considering the choice I have is indifference or open insults, I'll take indifference while I work out other ways of mediating interaction.

2) That's what Victor is for. He has the patience of reading through long posts that my eyes glaze over on or things that I'm liable to respond to less civilly to. He also brings things of significance to our attention. He, has not brought many things to our attention that we were not already aware of.

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