Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

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Aeneas
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by Aeneas » Thu May 01, 2014 8:52 pm

I myself own an Alix - catch is, 256 MB RAM only - and needed install over USB. But it was otherwise really OK, it worked for over half a year before I rebooted it due to shifting its place.

Webunny
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by Webunny » Fri May 02, 2014 3:19 pm

oldman wrote:Having read this:
ReactOS Deutschland e.V.


@Christian Vitroler

“Did you ever tell people here that ROS:CE will only run inside a VM?”

You sir should be ashamed of yourself for falsely accusing and attacking a free open source project. Here’s our community’s reply to your sentence above: https://www.reactos.org/wiki/PC_ROS_Rigs
(from here), I would like to tell everyone who reads this post, that I have been installing and trying-out/testing different releases/revisions of ReactOS on real computer hardware, for around 13 years, and there have only been a few that have not worked! I have seen it go from a command-line only screen, where you could do next to nothing, to a full graphical screen, where some programmes work to an acceptable level, considering that ReactOS is still at the alpha stage.

In the early days it was the official releases that I tried/tested, now I go for the trunk builds, and this is where I have found odd revisions that either would not install or had some bug stopping you from doing anything on the desktop.

Some people do have problems trying to install ReactOS, but this is usually, either on a laptop or on the newer desktops.

It's nothing to be THAT riled up about. The guy was hyperboling his complaint; we've seen worse. While it's true it's not ONLY in VM, truth be told that most instances where ROS is run, it IS in a VM. Real HW testing/running is still a minority as of yet. Also, while I've managed to get it working on one rig, that was 1 out of 4 that I tried: the others failed. That's a successrate of 25%. It's not statistically grounded, of course, but...just saying. ROS really isn't yet ready for prime time on real HW.

The person in question sees that as an insurmountable issue and complains about it, but I rather regard it as normal, for an alpha. It CAN run on *some* HW, but it's more for testing purposes than anything else. As long as one doesn't give the impression you can put it into any PC/HW and it will work just like your Windows did - and I don't think anyone gave that impression - I see no inherent problem with it. I think the person in question just had the wrong expectations of an alpha like ROS is now, and therefore was a bit frustrated in his response.

DOSGuy
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by DOSGuy » Fri May 02, 2014 4:15 pm

The main Indiegogo page doesn't contain the word "alpha". It promotes the fact that ReactOS: Community Edition will support the specific hardware and software that get the most votes, but contains no caveats about the OS not being suitable for a production environment or for everyday use. Do a search for any of those terms -- they aren't there! So unlike the ROS homepage, which prominently warns that ROS is in alpha stage, this campaign does seem to suggest (if only by omission) that ROS:CE will be suitable for running whatever software the community decides on whatever hardware the community decides, and will not be alpha software or unsuitable for everyday use. I'd love to think that ROS has truly come that far, but has it? Perhaps the poster is right to be sceptical, but wrong in the specific complaints that he levied against the campaign and dev team.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

zydon
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by zydon » Fri May 02, 2014 4:53 pm

No drivers = No future!

Simple equation how to go forward. Developer had to work with SBC manufactures or employ a Hardware hacker to work with a driver programmer. Drivers is the essential of the OS core. The OS core is the priority to be completed.

ROS had to decide what driver architecture they want to use which functional and adaptable when dealing with a different set of hardware. That mean, ROS has to improve MS WDM or has it own better driver architecture so it would be compatible with an old or a new drivers.

ROS should start building or collecting a drivers binary database so the OS could move up to the next level.


ps - I though ROS 0.3.0.7 was the best of all releases ever made.

Webunny
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by Webunny » Fri May 02, 2014 5:33 pm

DOSGuy wrote:The main Indiegogo page doesn't contain the word "alpha". It promotes the fact that ReactOS: Community Edition will support the specific hardware and software that get the most votes, but contains no caveats about the OS not being suitable for a production environment or for everyday use. Do a search for any of those terms -- they aren't there! So unlike the ROS homepage, which prominently warns that ROS is in alpha stage, this campaign does seem to suggest (if only by omission) that ROS:CE will be suitable for running whatever software the community decides on whatever hardware the community decides, and will not be alpha software or unsuitable for everyday use. I'd love to think that ROS has truly come that far, but has it? Perhaps the poster is right to be sceptical, but wrong in the specific complaints that he levied against the campaign and dev team.

I see your point. Yes, the IGG project might come to the attention of people that are unaware that ROS is alpha, and, in fact, don't know much about ROS as a whole - contrary to the regulars here.

That said...it's version 0.4; that alone should give an indication how far in development terms it is: I know of no examples where a version with 0.x is deemed anything but alpha or beta. The main release normally being 1.0.

But, granted, maybe one should give a note on the IGG page that the version is still alpha; better safe than sorry (aka, better warn in front than have to listen to disgruntled users who didn't get it).

mametoc
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by mametoc » Fri May 02, 2014 9:12 pm

DOSGuy wrote:The main Indiegogo page doesn't contain the word "alpha". It promotes the fact that ReactOS: Community Edition will support the specific hardware and software that get the most votes, but contains no caveats about the OS not being suitable for a production environment or for everyday use. Do a search for any of those terms -- they aren't there! So unlike the ROS homepage, which prominently warns that ROS is in alpha stage, this campaign does seem to suggest (if only by omission) that ROS:CE will be suitable for running whatever software the community decides on whatever hardware the community decides, and will not be alpha software or unsuitable for everyday use. I'd love to think that ROS has truly come that far, but has it? Perhaps the poster is right to be sceptical, but wrong in the specific complaints that he levied against the campaign and dev team.
Well as supported x app and/or x driver i understood what ReactOS WILL BE stable running x concrete stuff, is obvious what if a app/driver running in ReactOS makes bugs (crashes, estethic issues, etc...) still is not compatible.

ReactOS is "Alpha" in general terms becouse is incomplete but maybe not whit concrete stuff.

The other point i see is if developers must ask donators -or if themselves specified- in wich environment will worked the desired stuff, Real Hardware?, Virtual Machine?.

DOSGuy
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by DOSGuy » Sat May 03, 2014 5:02 pm

Webunny wrote:That said...it's version 0.4; that alone should give an indication how far in development terms it is: I know of no examples where a version with 0.x is deemed anything but alpha or beta. The main release normally being 1.0.
That's usually the case, but I can think of some examples. MAME is at 0.153 and has decided to never go to 1.0. Another emulator, DeSmuME, is at 0.9.10, though it's fully functional, supports just about everything you could ever want, and is not considered alpha or beta by anyone I know. Indie and open source software sometimes remains at 0.x for years after it becomes fully usable.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

mametoc
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by mametoc » Sat May 03, 2014 6:01 pm

That's maybe becouse coin-ops and Nintendo DS games still being produced nowadays.
Last edited by mametoc on Sat May 03, 2014 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Webunny
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by Webunny » Sat May 03, 2014 6:50 pm

DOSGuy wrote:
Webunny wrote:That said...it's version 0.4; that alone should give an indication how far in development terms it is: I know of no examples where a version with 0.x is deemed anything but alpha or beta. The main release normally being 1.0.
That's usually the case, but I can think of some examples. MAME is at 0.153 and has decided to never go to 1.0. Another emulator, DeSmuME, is at 0.9.10, though it's fully functional, supports just about everything you could ever want, and is not considered alpha or beta by anyone I know. Indie and open source software sometimes remains at 0.x for years after it becomes fully usable.
While alpha's and beta's (especially the latter) can work pretty good in some instances, it doesn't change the fact that they are not considered a finished product. (Well, ok, software is never truly finished, but you know what I want to say here.) The traditional way of saying something is ready for prime time is by having the '1' in the versionnumber. Your own example, Desume, is, as you say, 9.10 - aka, very close to 1, thus, in contrast to 0.4.
AND if one looks at the downloadpage, it's still considered beta, there. Overall, you would be hard-pressed for any reasonably thinking person to assume 0.4 is anything but alpha or beta, and thus, not quite ready for prime time. As to the level one expects it to work, that's of course, pretty subjective. As said, I do agree with you though, that it might be prudent to explicitly say so on the IGG page that it's meant as an alpha and not for general use.

What do the devs think of it?
Last edited by Webunny on Mon May 05, 2014 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

mametoc
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by mametoc » Sat May 03, 2014 8:51 pm

Webunny wrote:As to the level one expects it to work, that's of course, pretty subjective.
Well if we want to be more "objective" why not put "alpha" or "a" t the end of every ReactOS iso file and explain what means in every download iso (rel/trunk) ReactOS page?.

MadWolf
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by MadWolf » Mon May 05, 2014 5:28 am

mametoc wrote:
Webunny wrote:As to the level one expects it to work, that's of course, pretty subjective.
Well if we want to be more "objective" why not put "alpha" or "a" t the end of every ReactOS iso file and explain what means in every download iso (rel/trunk) ReactOS page?.
imho that is pointless what will be better on the Welcome to the Reactos page of the setup add the line ReactOS *** is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

chrisv5
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by chrisv5 » Mon May 05, 2014 1:17 pm

Let's get things straight. All, what I have initially said was this: "Sounds funny to me, being a beta tester for an alpha level product :-P". Just a play of words, nothing else. I even put a smiley there, to avoid it being mistaken for a serious complaint.

But then I got a rather offensive reply:

"ReactOS Community Edition was never advertised or claimed to be an alpha quality software"
"Perhaps you confused ReactOS Community Edition with ReactOS ?"

I was pretty dumbstruck. Since when Is ROS:CE a totally different product? And who are you to assume that I am simply unable (too dumb?) to tell one from the other. When they both come from the same source? Then I started to think. There is no mention about ROS being in alpha state at the IGG site. I am wondering now, is this deliberate? No mention that if you want to have any success with ROS, you better run it in a VM or else you won't have much fun with its (and still then it is more of scientific value than a productive one).

I was given that link: https://www.reactos.org/wiki/PC_ROS_Rigs

Please follow the link yourself. About half (if not more) of the entries are fails and many of the green entries say stuff like "no mouse, no video drivers, no network, no whatever". All right, if that is your definition of "it works". Hey, even if one accepts all the green entries for good, then these are still far less than 10 models. Not exactly most recent models, either. Impressive! Or maybe not?

Um, did anyone ever mention that ROS cannot print? Well, you are right, printing is so 20th century! We do not need that anymore.

By omitting the full truth (did you ever listen carefully to an oath of truth?) you are giving the impression, that every backer can run ROS:CE on their computers. And mind you, this is not about drivers. If ROS were a Windows compatible OS, one could use the stock drivers which came with their hardware. Unfortunately, a lot of the innards of an OS are either missing or broken.

Did you mention that it is 32 bit only? Forget about all those GB you are so proud of in your computer. Not sure about multicore support, anyone want to enlighten me? Um, do not expect to have multiple users, it is not supported.

Finally, what makes you think that throwing 50K at ROS will make it suddenly work? Are all the part time developers of today going to quit their jobs and working full time at ROS? I doubt it, seriously. 50K is a lot to collect, but insufficient to pay dozens of developers full time.

Just my 2 cents,

mametoc
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by mametoc » Mon May 05, 2014 2:57 pm

MadWolf wrote:
mametoc wrote:
Webunny wrote:As to the level one expects it to work, that's of course, pretty subjective.
Well if we want to be more "objective" why not put "alpha" or "a" t the end of every ReactOS iso file and explain what means in every download iso (rel/trunk) ReactOS page?.
imho that is pointless what will be better on the Welcome to the Reactos page of the setup add the line ReactOS *** is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.
Maybe is much better clarify thinks before run a boot/livecd on real hardware or run anything else under VM.

DOSGuy
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by DOSGuy » Mon May 05, 2014 6:40 pm

I agree with chrisv5 that ROS works best in a VM. There have been people using ROS on real hardware for years, but there is no guarantee that ROS will work on any particular computer or set of hardware components.

The IGG campaign doesn't promise that ROS:CE will work on every computer. It only explicitly promises that it will support the specific hardware and software chosen by the community's votes. It can be argued that by not explicitly stating that ROS:CE cannot be guaranteed to work on any other hardware, it is suggesting compatibility by omission. Near-universal compatibility is not an unreasonable assumption for anyone who hasn't been to the ROS homepage or followed development to the extent of forum regulars. Who has ever heard of a PC operating system that wasn't compatible with more or less every PC on the market? Of course, pointing out all of ROS:CE's limitations -- and driving home the point that ROS:CE is not guaranteed to work with any hardware or software not selected by the community -- would likely reduce donations. Regardless of any legal requirement, isn't there an ethical requirement to not set false expectations?

What expectations are set by the current wording of the IGG campaign page are subjective and it would be fruitless to debate them. As a longtime ROS user and follower of the project, I have no expectations of near-universal hardware compatibility for ROS:CE -- despite the lack of any disclaimer to that effect -- but a newcomer might. What is and isn't a reasonable expectation is subjective; what the IGG campaign should and shouldn't disclose is also subjective. That being the case, I have no problem with chrisv5, or anyone else, respectfully questioning the way ROS:CE is being promoted, or pointing out any legitimate limitations of ROS. It's impossible to list the limitations of ROS:CE since ROS:CE doesn't exist, but I consider it reasonable to expect many of ROS's limitations to be present in ROS:CE, even if $50k is donated towards project development.
Today entirely the maniac there is no excuse with the article. Get free DOS, Windows and OS/2 games at RGB Classic Games.

mametoc
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Re: Does ReactOS only run inside a VM?

Post by mametoc » Mon May 05, 2014 7:59 pm

Seems ReactOS Community Edition name gives the impression to some people what must be "magical" or simply misleading but it's only publicity/marketing or elsewhere related think. As far i know is no needed something like IGG to people push for a compatible think in ReactOS project (everyone can explicit in wich think must be invested our donation).

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