Blog: Moonshot Finale

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Z98
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Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:05 pm


livestrong2109
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by livestrong2109 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:38 pm

Z98 your a very unique individual and even more so as a Rabbit... Thanks for the story it really has been entertaining to read. Enjoy the plushy you've earned it!

Should have seen the eyeroll I got from the wife when she asked what i was reading. Ohh nothing honey just coding fan fiction... :roll:
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justincase
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by justincase » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:01 pm

Hello Z, now that we know some background, the Hackbunny reward makes so much more sense.
Also, there were 8 'claimed', and 10 made; Is there any chance that the remaining ones could be purchased? or if not, that another production run could, in future, be made? there may be more people who want one now that we all know what a Hackbunny is.

(Also, based on the story I would have thought they would have been bigger, and possibly slightly anthropomorphised.)

P.S.: I almost forgot, Did KJK::Hyperion get one? I think he should have one. They can make CheeseCake together.
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Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:48 pm

Technically nine claimed, seven from the backers, the black one I'm keeping, and one going to KJK. I'm also the one that technically owns the three extras since I'm paying for the extra costs incurred. And the chances of a second run in the near future is very slim. The per unit cost is too high and the turnaround time was something like three months for these ten. Until we get some kind of warehousing or the cost/benefit ratio is as high as for the crowdfunding reward, we're unlikely to do it again.

Alahndro
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Alahndro » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:15 pm

If I remember it correct, there once was the question why Reactos does not have a mascott. Linux have its pinguin and suse its chameleon.

I also like the plushie ReactOS logo the bunnies are carrying on their backs. I think we have a mascott.

Z98, I don't think they'll be the last ones to be produced...

Webunny
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny » Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:30 pm

Alahndro wrote:If I remember it correct, there once was the question why Reactos does not have a mascott. Linux have its pinguin and suse its chameleon.

I also like the plushie ReactOS logo the bunnies are carrying on their backs. I think we have a mascott.

Z98, I don't think they'll be the last ones to be produced...
Indeed, we had. I myself pointed out virtually every other major opensource OS has one and it would be a good thing as a brand-recognition and for potential financial gains (selling plushies). And the response was - and I thought it utterly ridiculous, to be frank - : "But, ermm...well, look at Haiku. They don't have one. So we don't neither."

A year later, here we have hackbunnies. Now, was or is it so difficult to say: well, let's make those our brand-plushies? Instead of coming up with complete irrelevant and irrational arguments?

Personally, I would add something to it; either 'humanise' them a bit more, or put a scarf with the ROS emblem on them, or something. But as material to base oneself on for a ROS-plushie, they would be perfect.

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:07 pm

I don't recall referencing Haiku, though Victor or Amine might have. But ultimately it's my position that you need to counter convincingly to overcome internal resistance from the project since I'm the one that expresses the project's position the most explicitly. My position basically boiled down to no one offering a strong argument for why having a mascot was so important. Much as how Haiku not having a mascot is not an argument for not having one, that other projects have mascots does not provide any sort of argument for having one. And seeing as the actual development of any mascot will require a fair amount of time and effort before they can be exploited for any kind of gain and no one could seem to present concrete steps for completing the necessary work pretty much made clear that no one was that serious about the idea.

I suppose I need to make clear that at this stage the project still does not have an actual mascot. The hackbunnies are basically little pieces of the project's history. To turn them into mascots would require a much bigger chunk of media to be prepared and a more complex design. The bunnies that were created for the crowdfunding campaign can at most be considered prototypes. To actually turn any sort of mascot into plush toys for sale would, again, require that the project have the storage capacity for an actual production run and the manpower to handle inventory and sales. This is not trivial and amounts to basically a full time job. There is a reason that a lot of projects outsource sales of things like shirts or mugs or USB drives to third parties, even if it cuts into margins. As plush toys are pretty much custom designs, they are not something that the various outsourcing firms offer and companies that do make them expect the commissioning party to handle distribution afterward.

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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:19 am

Z98 wrote:I don't recall referencing Haiku, though Victor or Amine might have. But ultimately it's my position that you need to counter convincingly to overcome internal resistance from the project since I'm the one that expresses the project's position the most explicitly. My position basically boiled down to no one offering a strong argument for why having a mascot was so important. Much as how Haiku not having a mascot is not an argument for not having one, that other projects have mascots does not provide any sort of argument for having one. And seeing as the actual development of any mascot will require a fair amount of time and effort before they can be exploited for any kind of gain and no one could seem to present concrete steps for completing the necessary work pretty much made clear that no one was that serious about the idea.

I suppose I need to make clear that at this stage the project still does not have an actual mascot. The hackbunnies are basically little pieces of the project's history. To turn them into mascots would require a much bigger chunk of media to be prepared and a more complex design. The bunnies that were created for the crowdfunding campaign can at most be considered prototypes. To actually turn any sort of mascot into plush toys for sale would, again, require that the project have the storage capacity for an actual production run and the manpower to handle inventory and sales. This is not trivial and amounts to basically a full time job. There is a reason that a lot of projects outsource sales of things like shirts or mugs or USB drives to third parties, even if it cuts into margins. As plush toys are pretty much custom designs, they are not something that the various outsourcing firms offer and companies that do make them expect the commissioning party to handle distribution afterward.
Lol. No, it wasn't you this time. ;-) It was Amine.

Now, the problem with 'convincing arguments' is that for someone not keen to an idea, no arguments wil ever be convincing enough. I have given two arguments: it augments brand-recognition and it can help with finances by selling it as plushies. Those are valid arguments, yet one can always deem them to be 'not convincing'.

Furthermore, while it's true that 'this organisation use it' or 'that organisation doesn't use it' has no intrinsic value as an argument on itself, statistically spoken, it's more common for a good idea to get adopted then a bad idea. Hence, if you see a giant prevalence of organisations using logo's, mascots and slogans, one can safely assume it's more likely than not there is some value in it. Why would almost all companies of some repute and many, many opens source projects, and a buckload of other projects and clubs and sportevents and what not, otherwise have such a thing? Clearly, it has *some* benefit. Seen the fact that the vast majority of any organisation and company of any importance has things like that, one might rightfully presume it has it's use - unless one is of the opinion they all suffer from some sort of grand delusion. To refer to a small minority that do not do it instead as an archetypical example why it's (not) done with us, makes no sense. Yes, it *could* be that those small organisation(s) who don't have the means or the will (or both) to do so, are right and making the correct choice, just as, when you leave the train in an unknown station and follow the majority of people, you *might* end up in the back-alley of the station anyhow. But, more likely it is, that if you follow the majority of people in a station, you'll end up in the main exit of that station. So it doesn't give you any certitude, but it does give you a heightened likelihood and chance, of being where you want to be: the main exit. The same goes with slogans, mascots and logo's. The fact that a vast majority of the more important organisations and companies use them, should be a sign there is something to it. On itself, there too you have no certainty, but since bad moves have less chance to be copied and propagated than good moves, one might rightfully assume something that is copied often and used for long periods, has some value.

And, imho, that value sits mainly in the things I gave as arguments.

As for not finding anything 'convincing': this, for me, is something I can't do anything with. I have the feeling that it's filled in entirely subjective. If not, please tell me what constitutes objective criteria for it to be convincing, and why would the arguments I gave fall totally outside those criteria?
Last edited by Webunny on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:09 pm

You present arguments about how useful a mascot would be if actually employed. As you have yet to demonstrate how the project is to find the manpower and time to generate the necessary media, find the space for storage, and ultimately deal with the logistics of directly managing shipments and a store, what you have not done is demonstrate how the project would actually employ said mascot. If the project cannot employ the mascot in a meaningful way, then any of the advantages you keep bringing up might as well not exist since they are directly dependent on it.

justincase
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by justincase » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:56 pm

Z98 wrote:Technically nine claimed, seven from the backers, the black one I'm keeping, and one going to KJK.
OK, so there's really only 1 "extra".
I'm also the one that technically owns the three extras since I'm paying for the extra costs incurred.
That is one reason why I was asking you. :lol:
And the chances of a second run in the near future is very slim. The per unit cost is too high and the turnaround time was something like three months for these ten. Until , we're unlikely to do it again.
OK, that makes sense, just 'thinking out loud' so to speak.

I am wondering now though: if there's still one that's extra (not 'claimed', not yours, not KJK's), you could probably auction it on eBay (or some such site) to recoup a little more of "the extra costs incurred". And actually if you did do that there's a possibility that the auction price could go up enough to help "push the React-O-Meter up" some, eh?

Edit - And as the mascot thing goes, I'm happy with the Hackbunnies being a sort of 'unofficial mascot' for the time being. If someone wants to do the work to make officialising their mascot status worth it, good for them, else-wise I'll just look forward to when "we get some kind of warehousing or the cost/benefit ratio is as high as for the crowdfunding reward".
Last edited by justincase on Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:57 pm

Z98 wrote:You present arguments about how useful a mascot would be if actually employed. As you have yet to demonstrate how the project is to find the manpower and time to generate the necessary media, find the space for storage, and ultimately deal with the logistics of directly managing shipments and a store, what you have not done is demonstrate how the project would actually employ said mascot. If the project cannot employ the mascot in a meaningful way, then any of the advantages you keep bringing up might as well not exist since they are directly dependent on it.
Here, you are talking about logistics. While logistics are important in the de facto deployment of a pluche mascot (when selling it), it has no direct bearing on the principle of why a mascot would or could be beneficial or not.

It's like asking why airplanes are useful. When I say: "it can transport you from one place to another very fast", this is an obvious argument. Then saying: "But what about the airports? Who is going to build them? Where is the money going to come from? Who is going to pilot the airplanes?" doesn't really refute anything of the advantages of an airplane, or what use it has.

The use that something has, and dealing with the logistics are two separate things. If you ask me how the logistics could be dealt with, I would need far more info. How many people are willing to work on this, and what amount of time are they prepared to put into it? Is one prepared to open different shops on different continents/countries? Has any of the members got any sort of storage place, or is ROS prepared to use part of the money to hire such a thing?

Your questions could well be answerable and solvable, but I and any regular person on the forum lack the necessary information to give you an answer on these specific questions - which you should be aware of, and why it is strange you would ask it in that light. Obviously, if you want an answer to those questions from forum-members, you'll need to provide us with enough background-information to point out possible ways one might proceed with the project.
Last edited by Webunny on Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Z98
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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:47 pm

The only people who might have the space for storage do not have the time to manage individual shipment. The number of people who might be willing to work on this number at most two, neither of whom live close to each other and neither of whom have enough time to handle shipping. The project is not willing to spend money on warehousing, not when the projected market is not expected to be able to even absorb 1000 bunnies quickly enough to allow for a decent ROI that is usable to the project.

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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:44 pm

Z98 wrote:The only people who might have the space for storage do not have the time to manage individual shipment. The number of people who might be willing to work on this number at most two, neither of whom live close to each other and neither of whom have enough time to handle shipping. The project is not willing to spend money on warehousing, not when the projected market is not expected to be able to even absorb 1000 bunnies quickly enough to allow for a decent ROI that is usable to the project.
Is there a possibility to let a third party handle some of these aspects? For instance, like contracting an already established webshop (not specifically our own, thus) to deal with storage or at least with the shipment of these hackbunnies? Granted, they would probably ask a percentage, but it still could be advantageous and a viable option.

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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Z98 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:19 pm

Third party webstores don't work that way and even if we find an exception, the projected market isn't big enough to run down an inventory of a thousand bunnies quickly enough for us to risk incurring long term storage costs. Doing something for "fun" is not a sound reason for committing the project's money unless there is a guaranteed payoff that results in a net gain.

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Re: Blog: Moonshot Finale

Post by Webunny » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:04 am

Z98 wrote:Third party webstores don't work that way and even if we find an exception, the projected market isn't big enough to run down an inventory of a thousand bunnies quickly enough for us to risk incurring long term storage costs. Doing something for "fun" is not a sound reason for committing the project's money unless there is a guaranteed payoff that results in a net gain.
Well, I'm not getting this completely. If you are of the opinion that you won't run down the 1000 bunnies quickly, this means the selling average per week would be considerable low: 1-2 per week? But if it's that low, why couldn't the two people you spoke of deal with sending a couple of bunnies per week? That seems reasonably doable, after all, then. I thought the whole point was they couldn't handle the large volumes to send, but then it would be run rapidly enough down for someone else too.

Basically, the people having the storages, could probably find the time to send two bunnies each week, no? Certainly if it's just placing a print-out on the goods. They wouldn't actually need to process the contact/sending itself with the customer, that could be done by someone else, even online.

And don't tell me post-offices don't work that way: they do. :-) I happen to be pretty familiar with it. You can make a contract with a sending service (preferably post-offices, because DHL is pretty expensive) to reduce shipping costs; the only obligation for such a preferable, cheaper contract would be a minimum amount of dispatching/sending, which is, in my country, possible from 150 a year. This is valid for all sorts of shipments, of course, it's not limited to hackbunnies per sé. Then, you get an account, where you can fill in where they have to pick it up, and where to deliver. There is no need for any of this to be done by the people actually storing the products, the only thing these have to do is to receive a printout of the person doing the shipments, and place it on the product that has to be send. This printout contains a bar-code, which makes it possible to track it, and see it's progression. You have premade plastic 'sheets' (which are self-gluing) where you can put that printout in, which makes the whole process a matter of minutes. Even for sending 5 items a week, this would mean offering up 20-25 minutes a week, maximum.

Could they not spend that limited time? They wouldn't have to bother with dealing with the shipments themselves, nor the customers: this could be handled by the central dispatcher, which can do it online and doesn't have to be geographically near at all.

I've used the same system myself, and it costs (with contract) about 6-7 euro's (though granted, those were only national, international would be more expensive). But in regard to spreading the logistic burden, it's a good system, and the physical dispatchers only have to put a printed address (provided/emailed as pdf by the central dispatcher for instance) on the goods and then wait until the post-office comes and gets it, and then delivers it.

You could even manage things only during the weekend; I don't think this will cause much problem, if you clearly explain and indicate as such to the customers when they buy it.

Of course, if the people with the storage-places do not wish to spend even half an hour on it, it gets more difficult. *Someone* must be willing to put the paper with the address/barcode on it.

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