Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

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justincase
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Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by justincase » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:42 am

I just found out about OSDisc.com, and they're selling copies of the ReactOS 0.3.16 CD (Live and Install versions, see https://www.osdisc.com/products/reactos), so I'm wondering if the ReactOS project gets any money from them?
The discs are pretty cheap, so it could be just enough to cover distribution expenses, but I can't tell if that's the normal price or if they're having some kind of sale. I was thinking of emailing them about the 0.3.17 release, but if there's some kind of agreement between them and the ReactOS foundation then I would guess that an official representative is probably supposed to contact them, and if there isn't, then I suppose it might be a good idea for an official representative to contact them about what they're doing, if they're doing it properly or not, and if there's something they should be doing differently. :|

Please let me know if I should just go ahead and email them, or if someone who's officially part of the Project will.

Thanks.
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vicmarcal
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by vicmarcal » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:37 pm

Thx Justincase!
I've received your PM :) I'll share your post to our ros-priv in order to check if there is any official answer available. :)
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karlexceed
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by karlexceed » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:23 pm

Assuming everything is currently legal and all are happy; I notice that their website lists an 'affiliate program'. It could present an opportunity to direct users to their site from the download page via some sort of 'Want a physical disc?' link and cash in on the 40% of whatever profit is made from their site.

Just a thought...

Z98
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Z98 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:27 pm

There is nothing precluding someone from selling code under GPL, nor does it really require the people who originally released the code to provide permission.

Konata
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Konata » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:15 pm

I don't think he's concerned about the code, I think the concern here is the ReactOS trademark.

justincase
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by justincase » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:19 pm

I realise there may be nothing illegal about it, but I don't really want to support them if they're not helping to support the projects that produce the products that they're selling. If they do donate some of the profits to ReactOS, then perhaps there could/should be a link somewhere on the site to point users to it, and I'll buy one.

Make sense?

(let me know if there's going to be an official 'affiliate' link that'll send more money toward the ReactOS Devs, and I'll wait so I can use that. :))

Edit: Thanks Konata, I knew there was a reason I was thinking they needed permission.
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Z98
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Z98 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:50 pm

Our trademark policy is that, if someone is using the logo to identify an unmodified image, they may do so, but they cannot use it to claim endorsement. And no, we have no relations with whatever this service is.

Webunny
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Webunny » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:15 am

Z98 wrote:Our trademark policy is that, if someone is using the logo to identify an unmodified image, they may do so, but they cannot use it to claim endorsement. And no, we have no relations with whatever this service is.
That's weird. When I tried to promote it by offering to sell it as printed CD's, there was made a whole big issue about the 'logo'. Though I was trying to do it in conjuncture and with permission of ROS foundation, it still caused problems and a lot of negotiating. Are you now telling me that anyone can sell ROS CD's, including the logo-image, as long as they do not portray it as being connected to the ROS foundation?

Z98
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Z98 » Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:03 am

I'm pretty sure we made clear at the time that while you could use the trademark as a 'label' to describe the images you could not use it to promote sales or imply any sort of formal relationship with the project. As such, if you attempted to print the logo onto the CD, the use of the logo could only be informational and we required you to make very clear that this was not a formal printing by the project.

justincase
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by justincase » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:51 am

OSDisc.com does not "make very clear" that it's not endorsed by the Project.
So do they have to stop? or enter some kind of agreement with the ReactOS Foundation to be able to distribute it?

Personally I'd like to see it continue, but for some of the revenue to go toward ReactOS' development.
:arrow:Please let me (and/or the community at large) know if such an agreement happens (with any distributor).
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Webunny
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Webunny » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:07 pm

Z98 wrote:I'm pretty sure we made clear at the time that while you could use the trademark as a 'label' to describe the images you could not use it to promote sales or imply any sort of formal relationship with the project. As such, if you attempted to print the logo onto the CD, the use of the logo could only be informational and we required you to make very clear that this was not a formal printing by the project.
Trademark or logo? The two are not exactly the same, even though one has to do with the other. You mean, I suppose, just saying something like 'This is ROS version 0.3.17' or something and NOT the logo. Because, if you're talking about the logo as well being allowed, even as an 'informal' (it's a logo: how informal can an official logo be?) printing...

Of course, in my case, that would defeat the purpose of selling it FOR the ROS foundation (aka: the money going fully to the foundation). Since that was the view I took. which isn't the view the above printing-business takes, apparently. I had the impression the use of the logo was prohibited if one would sell it 'as such' too, however. Because now, if I understood correctly, you can use/print the logo on the CD and/or cover and/or booklet, and, as long as you don't claim it's affiliate with ROS, one can sell it? But I suppose one could say part of the donation went to ROS, if part of the donation WAS going to ROS? Seems to me it's all made unnecessary complicated, then:

Hypothetical situation:

- somebody makes a CD with the logo and all on it, and gives 100% to ROS, but ROS doesn't endorse it, and neither can the person say he does..and everything is ok.
- somebody makes exactly the same CD with the logo and all on it, and gives 100% to ROS, but ROS doesn't endorse it, and yet the person say he does..and everyone is in upheaval.

There is actually no difference in the de facto handling of the thing: the same CD, the same code, the same use of the logo, even the same contribution to ROS, but yet one gets the get-go and the other the cold shoulder. It seems to miss some pragmatism. If you don't want any endorsement (or implied endorsement) of a third party, one would reasonably assume the use of the logo isn't allowed neither, at least.

And if it's allowed to be used anyway: why isn't that considered an implicit sign of endorsement, then? Even if not interpreted that way by the ROS foundation, than at least it's easy to see how the one doing it could interpret it that way, and, even more, that many of the buyers will interpret it that way.

I'm not sure anymore, but as I remember - I would have to check my emails, but it's no use to harp on what is past, so I dunno if I can be bothered enough to do so - I think the use of the logo was actually a big issue. The use of it on itself.

Ah, well, it's not that I care anymore, it just surprised me to see something which I consider to be a far more relaxed attitude towards the usage of the logo. I have the definite impression it got interpreted much more stringent in the past. But I guess that's a good thing. A bit more of a relaxed attitude in regard to trademarks and all that may actually be good. I'm not sure of the marketing strategy of such a thing, then, however. I heard (by Vic?) complain that it's very difficult to set a shop up to sell CD's, etc, etc. Well, then, why not go on board with services as described like the one above in the thread? Ask a percentage, and in return give an explicit 'endorsement'. Even if few, it will get you more than just doing nothing at all. It's better to have 5% of 100 bucks than 100% of zero bucks. And there is very little overhead too, so the 'too shorthanded' reason may be given a rest.

Webunny
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Webunny » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:14 pm

justincase wrote:OSDisc.com does not "make very clear" that it's not endorsed by the Project.
So do they have to stop? or enter some kind of agreement with the ReactOS Foundation to be able to distribute it?

Personally I'd like to see it continue, but for some of the revenue to go toward ReactOS' development.
:arrow:Please let me (and/or the community at large) know if such an agreement happens (with any distributor).
Z98 said they cannot use it to claim endorsement, he did not say they have to make it clear it's not endorsed by the project.

As said, it lacks pragmatism, granted, but asking not to say you are endorsed or asking to say you're not endorsed are two different things.

justincase
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by justincase » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:33 pm

Webunny wrote:Z98 said they cannot use it to claim endorsement, he did not say they have to make it clear it's not endorsed by the project.
Z98 wrote:... and we required you to make very clear that this was not a formal printing by the project.
Let me rephrase: I can not see anywhere on OSDisc.com that they "make very clear" that their copy is "not a formal printing by the project". There is no indication anywhere that I could find that they do or do not give money toward the development of the projects which they're selling on discs, and there is not indication anywhere on their site that they are not formally endorsed by the ReactOS Project, though the response in this thread indicate that they do not have any formal agreement with the ReactOS Project at all.

As stated, I'm not trying to get anyone to force them to stop (unless they're doing something illegal and won't fix it to be legal I suppose) but rather, I would like to see the ReactOS Foundation benefit from the sales of the ReactOS discs.

I'm really hoping that someone official will come in here and say something like "OSDisc.com has raised the ReactOS discs prices by $x.xx, and will now be donating $x.xx per disc sold to the ReactOS Foundation, the rest will go toward OSDisc.com's operating expenses.", and I'll leap for joy, buy some discs, (ask them to switch to 0.3.17 if they still haven't,) and put a link to them in my sig, but I'm starting to think that perhaps nobody cares but me (and Webunny).
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Webunny
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by Webunny » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:38 am

justincase wrote:
Webunny wrote:Z98 said they cannot use it to claim endorsement, he did not say they have to make it clear it's not endorsed by the project.
Z98 wrote:... and we required you to make very clear that this was not a formal printing by the project.
Let me rephrase: I can not see anywhere on OSDisc.com that they "make very clear" that their copy is "not a formal printing by the project". There is no indication anywhere that I could find that they do or do not give money toward the development of the projects which they're selling on discs, and there is not indication anywhere on their site that they are not formally endorsed by the ReactOS Project, though the response in this thread indicate that they do not have any formal agreement with the ReactOS Project at all.

As stated, I'm not trying to get anyone to force them to stop (unless they're doing something illegal and won't fix it to be legal I suppose) but rather, I would like to see the ReactOS Foundation benefit from the sales of the ReactOS discs.

I'm really hoping that someone official will come in here and say something like "OSDisc.com has raised the ReactOS discs prices by $x.xx, and will now be donating $x.xx per disc sold to the ReactOS Foundation, the rest will go toward OSDisc.com's operating expenses.", and I'll leap for joy, buy some discs, (ask them to switch to 0.3.17 if they still haven't,) and put a link to them in my sig, but I'm starting to think that perhaps nobody cares but me (and Webunny).

The second quote you used had nothing to do with OSDisc.com, however. It was directed at me. (note the difference between 'they' in the first, and 'you' in the second). Sure, this discrepancy seems weird, as were some other things, which was exactly why I noted and commented on it.

Anyway, for the quotes that dealt with OSDisc.com, there were only two posts of z98 relevant :
Z98 wrote:There is nothing precluding someone from selling code under GPL, nor does it really require the people who originally released the code to provide permission.
and
Z98 wrote:Our trademark policy is that, if someone is using the logo to identify an unmodified image, they may do so, but they cannot use it to claim endorsement. And no, we have no relations with whatever this service is.
He then said in a later post; in your (my) case, I had to make clear it was not endorsed (if I wanted to use the logo without endorsement). He did not say OSDisc.com had to make clear it it wasn't endorsed (because there he said they can not use it to claim endorsement).

You are interpreting it to mean that the same is true for OSDisc.com, but z98 didn't actually claim any of that. Granted, logically speaking, this interpretation is based on reciprocity, and makes logical sense. But technically, you can't say because Z98 said A to person Z, he also said A to person x (especially if he said B to person X in a comment just before). If, however, Z98 would now say that the situation (or whatever) is different for me then for OSDisc.com, then your whole argument - including the last one - is wrong. Because also the 'printing' was in regard to me and my situation, not OSDisc.com, so he could have been asking me, without asking it from OSDisc.com (as he, in fact, did. Or at least seem to do.)

Maybe we should ask Z98 for a more proper, coherent explanation. Z98, is someone using the logo obliged to claim that they are not endorsed, or is it enough that they don't claim they're endorsed?

As said before, those two things are not the same.

And, following: is that stance (whatever it will be) valid for any (third party) person or organisation (who's not endorsed), or is it dependent on the person/organisation, even when equally 'not endorsed'?

justincase
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Re: Does the ReactOS project get any money from OSDisc.com?

Post by justincase » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:44 am

Those posts look to me like they're about third party distribution in general, not specifically OSDisc.com. As far as I can tell you could open up a website of your own and sell ReactOS discs and they would apply to you too. There is no reason to separate your own desire to distribute ReactOS CDs from OSDisc.com's doing so unless you specifically want to have a different result (which in this case means that you (specifically you) have to jump through extra hoops to be allowed to do what they're already doing without having jumped through said hoops).
It seems to me that you're just trying to make a debate where there isn't one, we both want the same thing, for ReactOS CDs to be distributed, and for the proceeds to go toward the development of ReactOS.
Seriously, take a break and let someone who has some degree of authority over the distribution rights of ReactOS respond.

:arrow: Is there any chance that we (the community) can get ReactOS CDs from a distributor who sends at least a portion of the money they get from selling them to the ReactOS foundation?

I honestly don't care if this is via OSDisc.com, or via Webunny, or if you guys come up with some other way of doing it, but I'd really like to be able to help fund ReactOS by buying CDs.
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