[ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

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shunesburg
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by shunesburg » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:29 pm

j.rohr wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:25 pm
Because the internet is the one space where freedom of expression
Hahaha, the best sentence ever.
Try to upload a think against the Democracy or for racism or paedophilia, neo-nazism or other illegal thing and you would see if the censorship is here too, but censorship is not always a bad thing and don't wrong you yourself, it's use by every single country in the earth.

The freedom is a big word with different definition around the world.

hbelusca
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by hbelusca » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:25 pm

shunesburg wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:29 pm
The freedom is a big word with different definition around the world.
In particular, freedom is NOT anarchy. I personally base myself on the following definition of the freedom, from the french "Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen, de 1789" ("Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789"):
"Art. 4. La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres Membres de la Société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la Loi."
(Wikipedia english translation: "Article IV – Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the fruition of these same rights. These borders can be determined only by the law.")


j.rohr
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by j.rohr » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:05 am

shunesburg wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:29 pm
j.rohr wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:25 pm
Because the internet is the one space where freedom of expression
Hahaha, the best sentence ever.
Try to upload a think against the Democracy or for racism or paedophilia, neo-nazism or other illegal thing and you would see if the censorship is here too, but censorship is not always a bad thing and don't wrong you yourself, it's use by every single country in the earth.

The freedom is a big word with different definition around the world.
... and what you called "the best sentence ever" wasn't a full sentence. I dare you to look at the ever growing list sites by the Roskomnadzor and tell me, which percentage of them has to do with " racism or paedophilia, neo-nazism or other illegal thing". What does a blocked site like barentsobserver.no have to do with "racism, pedophilia or neo-nazism"? What justifies its blocking in your view?

Also, well-known sites that are blocked include kasparov.ru, grani.ru, ej.ru and navalny.ru. You may disagree with everything they say (I personally disagree with a huge lot and I am not a fan of Navalny or Kasparov at all), but those are not sites engaging in criminal behavior. Therefore there is no way to justify their blocking with crime prevention.
Last edited by j.rohr on Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

j.rohr
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by j.rohr » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:09 am

hbelusca wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:25 pm
shunesburg wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:29 pm
The freedom is a big word with different definition around the world.
In particular, freedom is NOT anarchy.
And anarchy is not lawlessness. It is the absence of hierarchy in the presence of rules which free humans have given themselves. But that as an aside.
I personally base myself on the following definition of the freedom, from the french "Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen, de 1789" ("Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789"):
"Art. 4. La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres Membres de la Société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la Loi."
(Wikipedia english translation: "Article IV – Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the fruition of these same rights. These borders can be determined only by the law.")
So how does this justify internet censorship in Russia? Why does a site like barentsobserver.no have to be blocked in Russia? What harm is prevented by this?
Last edited by j.rohr on Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

bobbykennedy
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by bobbykennedy » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:34 pm

What does a country's internet censorship have to do with ReactOS?

So by your logic, if the US government were to fund a free open source software project, then the people who work on that project condone all the human rights violations and terrorism committed by the United States?

shunesburg
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by shunesburg » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:30 pm

hbelusca wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:25 pm
shunesburg wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:29 pm
The freedom is a big word with different definition around the world.
In particular, freedom is NOT anarchy. I personally base myself on the following definition of the freedom, from the french "Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme et du Citoyen, de 1789" ("Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789"):
"Art. 4. La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres Membres de la Société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la Loi."
(Wikipedia english translation: "Article IV – Liberty consists of doing anything which does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has only those borders which assure other members of the society the fruition of these same rights. These borders can be determined only by the law.")
It's clear for me (and more because French is my native language), I don't said the anarchy is good or US is not a democracy, my only request is for the people stop to pointed only on Russia when there is lot of countries equal or worst (North Korea, China, Iran...).

j.rohr
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by j.rohr » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:43 am

bobbykennedy wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:34 pm
What does a country's internet censorship have to do with ReactOS?

So by your logic, if the US government were to fund a free open source software project, then the people who work on that project condone all the human rights violations and terrorism committed by the United States?
The problem is, when dependencies on any one powerful donor build up, then you inadvertently begin to self-censor. So even when you don't condone, you care to keep your mouth shut about things you disagree with. Unless you have a political culture where the threat of cutting off funding because of political disagreement is a no go for governments. In Scandinavia, if you accept funding from the state, you still can criticize it to some degree before you loose your funding. In Russia, you mostly can't.

Also, this is not just about whether or not to accept state support but whom to forge alliances with. Aligning yourself with a nationalist hawk like Viktor Aksnis, because he happens to support free software for nationalist purposes, that's clearly going too far in my view. When you read the (Russian) comments under Alknis' report about his meeting with Bragin, you can find that this sentiment is also shared by quite a few Russian observers. One comment described this as "treason" (diversiya). I guess even if you aim for state support, you still can make your choices carefully about whom to forge alliances with.

dizt3mp3r
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by dizt3mp3r » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:52 pm

j.rohr wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:43 am
I guess even if you aim for state support, you still can make your choices carefully about whom to forge alliances with.
I'd say that was about right and anyone else would be hard pressed to deny that logic.

I think the conversation should end here with that point, shall we ask EMU?

EmuandCo
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by EmuandCo » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:14 pm

To be very honest I would rather see this topic being closed down. I am no fan of political discussion on a project forum, because almost everytime it causes a mess and drama. Yes, I know that I am the one who fired it up even more, that's why I don't lock it and done. If someone wants to write a last conclusion, he can do so now and on Friday I lock it.
Image
ReactOS is still in alpha stage, meaning it is not feature-complete and is recommended only for evaluation and testing purposes.

shunesburg
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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] ReactOS as a second OS in Russian government

Post by shunesburg » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:56 am

EmuandCo wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:14 pm
If someone wants to write a last conclusion, he can do so now and on Friday I lock it.
You did it.

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