Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

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PurpleGurl
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by PurpleGurl » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:56 pm

Yes, Hermes, the top link you posted was why I said what I did.
erkinalp wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:41 pm
They could, but it was a foreign code. There were math errors that did not surface using x32 code but did using amd64 code. It would require a comprehensive rewrite to eliminate all those.
I think you missed what he asked. He meant leave it as it was with no conversion to x64. If it worked as 32-bit x86, then why convert it to x64 at all? Just leave it as it is and will continue to run as before. It is a user application, not kernel mode, so no need to even recompile it. Just ship the 32-bit build of pinball with 64-bit Windows. No additional effort required.

Thus we come back to my comments. Converting this was not necessary at all. And the 2nd link Hermes posted is not relevant either, as the developer clearly said in the first link that there was no licensing issue with Pinball. It was 3rd-party code, but no licensing issue with putting it in Windows itself. They just cannot sell 3rd-party games as stand-alone products without some sort of deal to do so with the original authors/publishers. But as long as it is bundled with WIndows, they could have shipped it.

Plus, with folks wanting things like Pinball, a media player similar to WMP, etc., maybe what some of those requesting such could do would be get together and create a "ReactOS Experience Pack" or something (maybe call it "React Experience Pack" to remove the trademark and any implied association, Fine Bros. withstanding ;) ). Then those who don't have kernel experience can contribute and improve their skills, and could be part of the ROS team with time.

middings
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by middings » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:35 pm

Thank you, hbelusca. I knew Raymond Chen had written a more recent blog post about Pinball. However, I didn't see it when I searched his recently remodeled The Old New Thing blog.

justincase
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by justincase » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:14 pm

PurpleGurl wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:50 am
On Microsoft removing Pinball, a couple of things stand out on that. I don't see why they felt the need to attempt to rewrite it. It was already 32-bit and would run as-is under x64. The other thing is that it sounds like it had sloppy code to begin with. If I were them, I'd have sent the rewrite back to the original author and see what they could do with it, since the original developer likely knows it better than them.
They couldn't "send the rewrite back to the original author". The original company that wrote it (Cinematronix, LLC) was purchased by Maxis (Early enough that the Maxis name is actually visible in the MS version along with the Cinematronix name) who renamed it "Maxis South", then Maxis was purchased by EA who shut down Maxis South, and laid off all the employees. All of this happened by 1997, and the original release of "Windows XP 64-Bit Edition for Itanium systems" was in 2002. Note that the first IA-64 processor was released in 2001, so while it's likely that MS was working on Windows XP 64-Bit Edition for Itanium systems a year or two prior to that, it's very unlikely that they were even considering 64-bit as far back as when EA killed Cinematronix/Maxis South in 1997.
Basically this means that any attempt to 'send it back' would have gone to EA, who would have been just as clueless regarding how it worked as MS was, and if it wasn't worth Microsoft's time to figure out and fix the 64-bit issues, it definitely wasn't worth hiring EA to do the same.
PurpleGurl wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:56 pm
erkinalp wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:41 pm
Reactions wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:57 pm
Interesting, couldn't they just run 32-bit programs on 64-bit?
They could, but it was a foreign code. There were math errors that did not surface using x32 code but did using amd64 code. It would require a comprehensive rewrite to eliminate all those.
I think you missed what he asked. He meant leave it as it was with no conversion to x64. If it worked as 32-bit x86, then why convert it to x64 at all? Just leave it as it is and will continue to run as before. It is a user application, not kernel mode, so no need to even recompile it. Just ship the 32-bit build of pinball with 64-bit Windows. No additional effort required.
Yeah, erkinalp, you missed the point of Reactions' post. What was meant (as PurpleGurl said) was to simply use the 32-bit version on the 64-bit release, and not bother to convert it to 64-bit.

What you all seem to be forgetting however, is that the original 64-Bit Edition of Windows XP was released for IA-64 (Itanium), not AMD64 (x86-64) and while it did include a version of WOW64, it was was very slow, as well as introducing many issues in 32-bit software that didn't occur when running on a 32-bit version of Windows XP, and thus while 32-bit software could be run on it, it was so slow, and introduced so many issues that if they were going to include 3D Pinball, they basically had to make a 64-bit version, which they deemed to be not worth their time/money.

Now, they could have started including it again in Windows Vista (or even Windows XP Professional x64 Edition, released for AMD64 processors in 2005), but apparently it fell off the release schedule when they decided to cut it from the original 64-bit versions of XP, and it hasn't been included in any later version of Windows :cry:.

Also, Note: As stated in On the attempts to resurrect Space Cadet Pinball (thanks hbelusca) "The agreement was for including Space Cadet Pinball in Windows 95, with options to include it in the Microsoft Plus! pack for Windows 95, as well as extending the distribution rights to successor products of Windows and the Plus! pack. ... Unfortunately, release as an independent product was not included in the terms of the deal." Therefore Microsoft can't release it as a separate game without getting a new license from EA (which seems unlikely), and "The license also does not permit releasing the source code to the public." so they're not going to be releasing the source either. :cry:

So the only way we're ever likely to see a new release, is if Microsoft randomly decides to start including the 32-bit version in Windows again, which seems unlikely, or if Microsoft decides to put together a new "Plus!" pack that includes it, and since the last couple of releases in the "Plus!" series didn't include Pinball, and the "Plus!" series has been discontinued in favor of "Windows Ultimate Extras", which itself has been discontinued in favor of the Ultimate editions of Windows 7+ basically being an individual license to use the features included in the Enterprise edition, that seems pretty unlikely too.
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PurpleGurl
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by PurpleGurl » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:37 am

Justin,

Thank you for the missing pieces. IA-64 changes things.

---

Also, again, maybe another way to get a pinball is if some of us decide to write one. As suggested before, there are open source pinball games. So if someone could work on one of those and make it reasonably look and feel like the one that comes with Windows, and do so in a clean way, it would be nice for ROS and Windows users.

Reactions
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by Reactions » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:01 pm

PurpleGurl wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:37 am
Justin,

Thank you for the missing pieces. IA-64 changes things.

---

Also, again, maybe another way to get a pinball is if some of us decide to write one. As suggested before, there are open source pinball games. So if someone could work on one of those and make it reasonably look and feel like the one that comes with Windows, and do so in a clean way, it would be nice for ROS and Windows users.
Instead of using code to make one, I would use a game engine.
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mrmajik45
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by mrmajik45 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:29 pm

Just make sure it isn't a huge file.
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Reactions
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by Reactions » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:40 pm

mrmajik45 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:29 pm
Just make sure it isn't a huge file.
Of course. Less than 1 gig?
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onestop_mid
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by onestop_mid » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:31 pm

Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:40 pm
mrmajik45 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:29 pm
Just make sure it isn't a huge file.
Of course. Less than 1 gig?
I'd try for 100-200MB.

PurpleGurl
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by PurpleGurl » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:47 pm

Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:01 pm
Instead of using code to make one, I would use a game engine.
Well, I am not sure that is applicable to arcade style games. Game engines mostly apply to First Person Shooter games. If we wanted to include a Doom-like game, it is easy to get some version of the Quake engine or a 3rd party open source alternative, and then it would just be a matter of using a map editor, taking any custom sounds, music, backgrounds, and sprites, and compiling all that into a .wad file.

But with pinball, I still think starting with an open source one and modifying to have a similar L&F to what the Microsoft Pinball fans would have. One would have to make sure they use their own images and not import copyright ones.

And I'd visibly alter the appearance to where it is visibly different to not have an exact look, but close enough to allow a similar enough game experience. In arcade games, the textures and colors of the game objects do affect game play and perception. For some players (particularly female), the "busier" the tiles in Tetris-like games for instance, the harder they think it is. Rationally, it plays exactly the same, but it might be more distracting and thus feel harder, since it takes more brain power to ignore any possible data overload.

Reactions
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by Reactions » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:02 pm

PurpleGurl wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:47 pm
Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:01 pm
Instead of using code to make one, I would use a game engine.
Well, I am not sure that is applicable to arcade style games. Game engines mostly apply to First Person Shooter games. If we wanted to include a Doom-like game, it is easy to get some version of the Quake engine or a 3rd party open source alternative, and then it would just be a matter of using a map editor, taking any custom sounds, music, backgrounds, and sprites, and compiling all that into a .wad file.

But with pinball, I still think starting with an open source one and modifying to have a similar L&F to what the Microsoft Pinball fans would have. One would have to make sure they use their own images and not import copyright ones.

And I'd visibly alter the appearance to where it is visibly different to not have an exact look, but close enough to allow a similar enough game experience. In arcade games, the textures and colors of the game objects do affect game play and perception. For some players (particularly female), the "busier" the tiles in Tetris-like games for instance, the harder they think it is. Rationally, it plays exactly the same, but it might be more distracting and thus feel harder, since it takes more brain power to ignore any possible data overload.
Well, I'm not good at coding. Second, that is not true, as games engines are great for simulations, 2d games, 3d games, arcade games, FPS, AI training, and much more.

learn_more
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by learn_more » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:42 pm

onestop_mid wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:31 pm
Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:40 pm
mrmajik45 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:29 pm
Just make sure it isn't a huge file.
Of course. Less than 1 gig?
I'd try for 100-200MB.
Try 1MB.

Reactions
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by Reactions » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:16 pm

learn_more wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:42 pm
onestop_mid wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:31 pm
Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:40 pm


Of course. Less than 1 gig?
I'd try for 100-200MB.
Try 1MB.
Oof
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hbelusca
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by hbelusca » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:03 am

Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:16 pm
learn_more wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:42 pm
onestop_mid wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:31 pm


I'd try for 100-200MB.
Try 1MB.
Oof
No no no, try 640 kB, because it should be enough for everyone :lol:

Reactions
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by Reactions » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:07 am

hbelusca wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:03 am
Reactions wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:16 pm
learn_more wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:42 pm


Try 1MB.
Oof
No no no, try 640 kB, because it should be enough for everyone :lol:
Oofidy dofidy
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PurpleGurl
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Re: Should I make a Pinball game for ReactOS?

Post by PurpleGurl » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:05 am

On game engines, you might want to do more research. A pinball game is more open ended. It isn't like a first person shooter where it is an established format. Or even adventure games, though using such limits the scope of the play. So if you use a game engine, you are at the mercy of finding one that already does what you want to do.

Secondly, "game making kits" tend to be bloated and large. You can get a smaller size if you can actually code it yourself and avoid managed code.

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