Notepad++ as the default ReactOS editor?

Here you can discuss ReactOS related topics.

Moderator: Moderator Team

Notepad++ as the default ReactOS editor?

Yes
23
32%
No
43
60%
Maybe
6
8%
 
Total votes: 72

Lyx
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:30 am

Post by Lyx » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:14 pm

1. Notepad++ is too complex for normal users. Plain simple notepad however imho is too simple. Something like notepad with syntax-highlightning, linenumbers, column-edit, tab-guides, MDI and brace-matching would be ideal. Most of those features would not need any user interaction or options and could instead work automatically. A seperate option to change the encoding would also be nice. This featureset is enough for *almost* everyone yet allows to keep a simple UI and small filesize. If someone needs more, then he/she should install it manually.

2. large manufacturers are maybe not interested in ROS. However, smaller vendors may very well be. I'm working as freelance pc-techsupport and am also installing and maintaining inet-cafes. I would be very interested in ROS when it is mature and if it could cope with switching from one PC to another. That way, i could easily create preconfigured ROS-preloads by creating partition-images - which could then simply be loaded unto any PC, install a few drivers, et voila. That way, i neither would have to cope with winXP's stupid reregistration, nor with customers loosing their product-key nor with windows messing up if i transfer the entire OS from one PC to another one. If ROS would manage to do that and be mature, then it would instantly become my favorite OS for single and mass-deployment, because i can simply create a preload and deploy it, without caring about product-registration and -keys, or messup caused by hardware-changes.

Ratteler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:31 pm

Post by Ratteler » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:17 pm

Floyd wrote:i disagree. OEMs will ship with windows because that's what people know. OEMs don't ship with anything other than windows because that's what the world essentially uses (i mean really, ~90% market share).
The thing is people DON'T know Windows. They know buying games and other software off the shelf, or downloading cool stuff. As long as the applications they want can run and they can understand the interface, they won't mind saveing ~$150 for an OEM licence one bit.

And neither will the PC Makers. "Blank" System sales are actually on the rise, and the major reason Linux doesn't ship on more systems is a non-competitve clause that MS makes the Dell's and Gateway's sign in order to get a decent OEM deal. They were litterally barred by MS from shipping machine with Linux installed.
the people that will be using reactOS for the foreseeable future are people who are savvy enough to want to try other OSes.
More like those savy enough work with a .3 Alpha of an OS.

No OEM will even attempt to replace Windows with ReactOS until it's a nice stable 1.0.

But if 32Bit Windows is still the dominant OS on the Market at that time, ReactOS could be used as the bargining chip to get MS to play nice.

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:42 pm

Ratteler wrote:
Floyd wrote:i disagree. OEMs will ship with windows because that's what people know. OEMs don't ship with anything other than windows because that's what the world essentially uses (i mean really, ~90% market share).
The thing is people DON'T know Windows. They know buying games and other software off the shelf, or downloading cool stuff. As long as the applications they want can run and they can understand the interface, they won't mind saveing ~$150 for an OEM licence one bit.
yes, they do know windows. even if they're too stupid to figure out what a mouse is they sure know what a windows logo looks like. they will look at their game that says "made to work on windows", NOT see the windows logo and will get windows. it does not matter if react is compatible or not. most people won't get react unless they are already somewhat computer savvy.

reactOS simply doesn't pass the grandma test. you can believe that in some fictional universe people will suddenly ditch windows because it's free, and that may be true for some OEMs; but most people will want windows because their TurboTax and Doom V boxes will say "made for windows".

especially when you consider OEMs get a kickback for using windows in the first place. you honestly believe they'll all give that up?
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Ratteler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:31 pm

Post by Ratteler » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:49 pm

Floyd wrote:yes, they do know windows. even if they're too stupid to figure out what a mouse is they sure know what a windows logo looks like.

...but most people will want windows because their TurboTax and Doom V boxes will say "made for windows".
If they've never owned a computer before they will have no idea what that logo really means.

If they are upgrading they will ask, "Does it run (Program X)?" If the answer is yes, they won't care.

If ReactOS runs TurboTax and Doom V they will never know it's not Windows.

It's you who are giving the average user credit for to much tech savy. They know if the program they buy works. If it doesn't they ask questions.
especially when you consider OEMs get a kickback for using windows in the first place. you honestly believe they'll all give that up?
Kickbacks? Who's living in a fictional world now. MOST OEM's hate Microsoft more than the most ardent Linux zealot. Microsoft makes them jump through many hoops in order to have the "privledge" of buying their products, and has OEM agreements that restric the OEM from selling systems with OTHER operating systems or competing applications if they want the best deal.

OEM's don't sell MS products because they have warm fuzzy affection for them, or because they make money hand or fist from them. They sell the MS products because they absolutly no choice.

Lunix is not choice because it won't run programs for Windows. ReactOS, if it stays the course, WILL!

The only time anyone will care is if some breaks in RoS that works in Windows.

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Z98 » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:10 pm

Also, Microsoft charges companies like Dell and Gateway just so they can get access to the code to put up their own bootscreen and customize other aspects of the OS to lean more towards their company.

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:04 am

Ratteler wrote: Kickbacks? Who's living in a fictional world now. MOST OEM's hate Microsoft more than the most ardent Linux zealot. Microsoft makes them jump through many hoops in order to have the "privledge" of buying their products, and has OEM agreements that restric the OEM from selling systems with OTHER operating systems or competing applications if they want the best deal.
you are the one living in the fantasy world. it's moot whether or not OEMs like microsoft, it's about numbers. microsoft has the market share. it is not that difficult to acquire microsoft windows to sell and may even be mandatory in some countries ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/08 ... opies_you/ ). oftentimes OEMs that sell computers with linux, such as in china, people would buy them with linux for the cheaper price and then install a pirated version of windows.

oh and this is how you become a reseller (hardly "hoops"):
https://partner.microsoft.com/40031861
the entry "certified member" is even free. and since you buy the product at low cost to you, and all you have to do is sell it with hardware (often motherboards) it doesn't really hurt you at all. it's hardly difficult or expensive. and since windows is the dominant OS as far as demand goes, it doesn't take a genius to figure that's where the money is.

also, using "MS" for "MS" doesn't make you look biased or zealous in any way.
Last edited by Floyd on Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:07 am

Z98 wrote:Also, Microsoft charges companies like Dell and Gateway just so they can get access to the code to put up their own bootscreen and customize other aspects of the OS to lean more towards their company.
not true, the logos in setup and default wallpaper, default IE homepage and even the logo in the My Computer properties and About screen are simple image files and registry settings. microsoft even provides OEMs with tools to customize their images on the windows disc itself. hell, you could customize your windows disc if you wanted to. you couldn't resell it of course as you wouldn't be licensed, but to just customize it? nope.
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Z98
Release Engineer
Posts: 3379
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 8:16 pm
Contact:

Post by Z98 » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:16 am

Uh, you just made my point. You're not allowed to redistribute any changes you make. OEMs can because of a licensing agreement with Microsoft. I think I misread the article I'm referring to about the source code part, but Microsoft places restrictions on the OEMs regarding customizations according to their license.

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:04 pm

Z98 wrote:Uh, you just made my point. You're not allowed to redistribute any changes you make. OEMs can because of a licensing agreement with Microsoft. I think I misread the article I'm referring to about the source code part, but Microsoft places restrictions on the OEMs regarding customizations according to their license.
no, you're missing a fine point. they don't charge to customize it (your point). they charge to resell and redistribute--which is a standard practice in businesses of any type.
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Ratteler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:31 pm

Post by Ratteler » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:56 pm

MICROSOFT AGREES TO END UNFAIR MONOPOLISTIC PRACTICES
Exclusionary Per Processor Licenses--Microsoft makes its
MS-DOS and Windows technology available on a "per processor"
basis, which requires PC manufacturers to pay a fee to Microsoft
for each computer shipped, whether or not the computer contains
Microsoft operating system software. The complaint alleges that
this arrangement gives Microsoft an unfair advantage by causing a
manufacturer selling a non-Microsoft operating system to pay at
least two royalties--one to Microsoft and one to its competitor--
thereby making a non-Microsoft unit more expensive.
"Microsoft has used its monopoly power, in effect, to levy a
"tax" on PC manufacturers who would otherwise like to offer an
alternative system," said Bingaman. "As a result, the ability of
rival operating systems to compete has been impeded, innovation
has been slowed and consumer choices have been limited." She
noted that Microsoft has maintained the price of its operating
systems while the price of other components has fallen
dramatically. Since 1988, Microsoft's share of the market has
never dropped below 70 percent.
MS has made a lot of bad OEM blood, and to spite cosmetically altering it's operation, it's continued varations of it's practices with just enough changes to keep the DOJ off it's ass.

Now... offer those OEM's an OS that will run all the same software at a fraction of the cost, with a GPL licence instead of the MS one, and any "Floyd" should be able to see they will have NO trouble shutting MS out.

Try doing Google for "Microsoft unfair OEM practices", and read of the dozens of other ways MS screwed over OEM partners.

Then... when you know what the ]=\/<]{ you're talking about, come back and try to make sense for a change, Floyd.


Oh... and Floyd.

M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$MS

Bias is irrelevent when confronting the truth.

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:35 am

Oh... and Floyd.

M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$M$MS

Bias is irrelevent when confronting the truth.
yes microsoft has unfair business practices but that still doesn't deny the fact that they are where the money's at.

!snip! repeating MS over and over again proves a good point!
or as my friend drew puts it, rebel without a clue!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/11/08 ... _helps_ms/
leads to ...
http://news.com.com/Desktop+Linux+a+veh ... 88863.html
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Ratteler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:31 pm

Post by Ratteler » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:30 pm

What have ANY of those links got to do with OEM's installing ReactOS 1.0. At version 1.0, RoS will be 99.99% compatible with Windows XP SP2, eliminating any NEED to install a legitimate, or pirate copy of Windows?

Are your trying to infer that ReactOS is a "Pirate OS"?

That it will be used instead of Linux to sell machines that will eventually run a real Windows?

Let's do a little recap to remind you what we are talking about.

Should Notepad++ as the default ReactOS editor? No.
Most people think the Notepad replacement should be as generic as the real windows version for compatibility.

Why?
One claim is that people are too stupid to use something more complex.
uriox claims only expert users will try ReactOS anyway.

I claim OEM's will prefer something as close as possible to Genuine Windows.
You claim “OEMs will ship with windows because that's what people know.

This is you're first flaw in logic. As I pointed out, people only know weather or not the OS runs the Online Poker games, and off the shelf titles they buy, without a hassle. If you knew anything about ReactOS (aka, read the FAQ's) you would know the goal by 1.0 is 100% compatibility. Assuming that goal is met by version 1.0 there will be NO EFFECTIVE DIFFERENCE between any 32bit Windows and ReactOS. People will run the same install programs and the Applications will run just as if it was on a real Windows. That is why RoS is better than a Linux Distro with Wine or some other JIT emulation.

So, you must be claiming that either RoS will NEVER be compatible enough to run Windows application as well as Windows or that Windows brand loyalty is SO strong that people will pay extra rather run a compatible OS.

If brand loyalty was that strong (Besides you Balmer of course), you would have no argument about “Windows bias” or Microsoft (MS) haters.

You tried to claim, in a demeaning manner, that OEM's don't care and that they make money on Windows. I provided evidence that this is not true, and that do to previous abuse by Microsoft, many OEM's would welcome the chance to avoid doing business with Microsoft.

You said something about market share, and provided links that had nothing to do with the conversation. Then made another snarky remark.

That should bring us up to date. I would suggest if you really must keep on making yourself look like an ass, start another message as the topic drift on this one has already gotten out of hand.

Otherwise, learn from your mistakes and think before you type.

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:48 pm

What have ANY of those links got to do with OEM's installing ReactOS 1.0. At version 1.0, RoS will be 99.99% compatible with Windows XP SP2, eliminating any NEED to install a legitimate, or pirate copy of Windows?
Are your trying to infer that ReactOS is a "Pirate OS"?


no i am not inferring that react is a pirateOS. i am inferring that it will never be 100% compatible by simple fact that it is an entirely different codebase and some windows programs that take advantage of structural flaws in windows will break. evidence of this can be seen by programs that break from service pack to service pack. they are still out there and they are still being made.

That it will be used instead of Linux to sell machines that will eventually run a real Windows? Let's do a little recap to remind you what we are talking about.

the argument could be made that they will buy a reactOS OEM machine due to price and pirate windows. this is not certain but there is a precedent. also, you were the one that started to hijack the thread about using notepad++

Should Notepad++ as the default ReactOS editor? No. Most people think the Notepad replacement should be as generic as the real windows version for compatibility.
-snip-


that's fine. that is your position and that's cool--i disagree but this thread was an opinion thread and i gave mine. but i find it interesting that you say that people are too stupid to recognize the difference between react and windows but not stupid enough to see that notepad and notepad++ are not the same program (even considering the default behavior of notepad++ is very similar to notepad aside from the obvious line numbering side panel).

This is you're first flaw in logic. As I pointed out, people only know weather or not the OS runs the Online Poker games, and off the shelf titles they buy, without a hassle. If you knew anything about ReactOS (aka, read the FAQ's) you would know the goal by 1.0 is 100% compatibility. Assuming that goal is met by version 1.0 there will be NO EFFECTIVE DIFFERENCE between any 32bit Windows and ReactOS. People will run the same install programs and the Applications will run just as if it was on a real Windows. That is why RoS is better than a Linux Distro with Wine or some other JIT emulation.

it won't be 100% compatible. it never will be because it is using entirely different codebase. also you are trying to hit a moving target. not even windows is entirely compatible with windows because it changes so often. and what you fail to realize is that people look for logos. and packaging and so on. savvy users will see "runs win32 bit apps" and will recognize what that means. non-savvy users will see a windows logo on Quicken and no windows logo on react and automatically be skeptical. some will be brazen and try. others won't. it's simple human psychology and has nothing to do with technology.

So, you must be claiming that either RoS will NEVER be compatible enough to run Windows application as well as Windows or that Windows brand loyalty is SO strong that people will pay extra rather run a compatible OS.

you're seeing the argument as black and white and it isn't. i've already stated multiple times in this forum that there is no such thing as 100% compatibility. and i've also stated many times in this thread that people will look for what the marketing has trained them to look for. will there be switchers right away? yes. will it be in droves like you claim? no. a good example of this is OpenOffice.org v2 vs. MSO. OOo does a great job of running MSO documents and has many features MSO lacks, but yet i know die hards that do nothing but write email in word that won't switch for precisely the reasons i mentioned.

You tried to claim, in a demeaning manner, that OEM's don't care and that they make money on Windows. I provided evidence that this is not true, and that do to previous abuse by Microsoft, many OEM's would welcome the chance to avoid doing business with Microsoft.

explain to me how my comment was demeaning. you're the one that went on a rant and made yourself look immature. you can't claim that you were acting professionally when calling MS by MS. their initials or logo have no $ in them and is used frequently by the "l33t" crowd and using it thusly you associate yourself with them.

You said something about market share, and provided links that had nothing to do with the conversation. Then made another snarky remark.

as opposed to your "oh and look, M$M$M$M$MS" comment? do as i say not as i do?

That should bring us up to date. I would suggest if you really must keep on making yourself look like an ass, start another message as the topic drift on this one has already gotten out of hand.

Otherwise, learn from your mistakes and think before you type.


you're the one that brought up the whole OEM tangent that had nothing to do with using notepad++ over a generic notepad program. i think you need to look in the mirror.
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Ratteler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:31 pm

Post by Ratteler » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:55 pm

Like I said, if you want to continue this, lets start another thread.

As for the OEM comment being irrelevent, I suggested that not using a more sophisticated Notepad might not appeal to OEM's who would seek a more 1 to 1 replacment than a suped up RoS.

You're demeaning comment was ...
reactOS simply doesn't pass the grandma test. you can believe that in some fictional universe people will suddenly ditch windows because it's free, and that may be true for some OEMs; but most people will want windows because their TurboTax and Doom V boxes will say "made for windows".
Questioning my reason is far closer to a personal attack than my shorthand use of MS. I responded at the level you presented yourself.

You've presented your opinions. That's fine. That is a discussion. But it is YOU who lost credibility when you questioned my reason instead of a facts.

We now return any one who still cares to our regularly schedualed discussion. :D

Floyd
Posts: 300
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:45 am
Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:39 pm

Ratteler wrote: You're demeaning comment was ...
reactOS simply doesn't pass the grandma test. you can believe that in some fictional universe people will suddenly ditch windows because it's free, and that may be true for some OEMs; but most people will want windows because their TurboTax and Doom V boxes will say "made for windows".
Questioning my reason is far closer to a personal attack than my shorthand use of MS. I responded at the level you presented yourself.
just because someone disagrees with you and has a different reasoning in doing so that is not demeaning. demeaning would be calling you names or trying to humiliate you. i think you took it too personally.
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests