compiler and IDE in base install (Why Johnny can't code)

[eteepell]

I was reading an article some time ago see ::
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2006/09/14/basic/
that made me think of where technology has been heading over the past 20 years or so. Pls read the article when u get the time.


My idea is that we should have a compiler and a good IDE in the base installation for ReactOS. We cannot wait for MS to do the same, they likely never will. ..no financial benefit I would imagine from their perspective. We have the particular advantage in that we already have a nice compiler suite. ReactOS developers can work to continually make it better and use it for the ongoing ReactOS development itself.

In terms of look and feel I'm thinking of Visual C++
Any ideas?

Thx.

[InFeRnODeMoN]

Everyone can get Dev-CPP if they want.

[eteepell]

if little johnny needs to find out about dev-cpp, download it, install it and learn it from there. we have already lost.

My point is to have something in the base install along the lines of notepad, wordpad, etc. that someone , especially kids and the first computer user, can learn about how to program with.

Like in the article DOS once came with BASIC. nowadays a BASIC compiler would seem a rather dead horse, but a C/C++ compiler would not be completely out of the question. It's how ReactOS was created in the first place after all. The concept of the IDE is to allow the application to be more in-line with the existing applications. Wordpad has buttons to make things bold and to save docs. IDEs have buttons for compile, and run. Throw in the odd "hello world" source so people can play with it. Kool?

[mikedep333]

We categorize software into 4 groups.
Essential parts of reactos are in the reactos folder. These are things like notepad and task manager.
Software that is a good idea to have as part of reactos (and of course free/libre) and perhaps developed/ported by ourselves is in the rosapps folder. These are things like a defragger and our image editor (that is early in development.) These are often integrated into our releases, but not in our trunk builds. This group is not that big because of bandwidth issues and because we don't want to install things that people simply don't want. IDEs will not fall under this category because most people are not developers.
Software that is compatible and often desired, but usually big (and im not sure about free/libre requirements), are in our package manager (which is itself in rosapps.) This includes things like abiword. I am sure that IDEs will eventually be placed in here once we are in beta/1.0 stage.
Finally everything else can be downloaded and installed at will. We maintain a list of such compatible apps in our compatibility database and on the wiki. This isn't like a linux distro where you can't go install whatever you want. Eventually people will probably make distros of ReactOS with this software and we will encourage them to do so.

To see what is included in ReactOS or rosapps, take a look here
http://svn.reactos.org/viewcvs/reactos/ ... lications/
http://svn.reactos.org/viewcvs/reactos/trunk/rosapps/

compatibility database
http://www.reactos.org/support/
wiki page on apps (some references to working or not)
http://www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/R ... plications

To see a list of IDEs, take a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... vironments

[hto]

Those compilers and IDEs are bloated. Not good for learning.

[eteepell]

"
Software that is compatible and often desired, but usually big (and im not sure about free/libre requirements), are in our package manager (which is itself in rosapps.) This includes things like abiword. I am sure that IDEs will eventually be placed in here once we are in beta/1.0 stage.
"

This means to me that development tools, both simple and complex will be placed in a package tool which includes word processing. I have never seen a computer without a word processor. This is good. Thank you.

I feel it is important that in a Windows environment someone must choose to be ignorant of computing, and not be forced to be ignorant by the operating system design itself. I am afraid over the years the Windows product has been making people more and more ignorant of computing in general. As an aside I would say it is not necessarily an intentional thing. As an industry we try and make things easier for people, but it is important to present the complexities also, as an option, or an alternative, and in a friendly manner, be that development tools or otherwise.

I grew up with a C64, did some BASIC there, never really caught on to it. Later I got a PC, using DOS I really did catch on to the command line. I use FreeBSD now. I might not know everything but I know a lot about a little. I would not know any of these things now though if it was not for the early operating systems and their ability to teach relatively complex computer basics (by todays standards).

I dont know if I will have anything more to post on this, but I would love to hear other people in the community and hear what they think about these things. It is more of a philisophical discussion but I think it would be valuable to the projects long term goals.

[Z98]

The general approach of the devs is actually quite simple. Whatever is not needed for compatibility or is not included by default by Windows will not be part of the source code. The Download! manager only houses a series of links to download the installers for each program. ROS doesn't host its own repository or anything. And finally, the devs expect the end user to install the apps they want themselves. They don't intend to hold users hands.

[Mrkaras]

as far as having something programmable, why not make some simple IDE to help write .vbs and .js windows scripting host files (WSH will need to be created/included eventually anyway). just add a help file/language reference and your done without adding all that much. not a real programing interface but as QBASIC wasn't really either, if anybody wants something better they will go looking then.

[oiaohm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBASIC Little better than Qbasic.

IDE's are not exactly simple to write. There is the option of notepad++ http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net. This is not the only option. Notepad++ can be customized to be able to open help files.

Even before this could be started a more clear idea of exactly what is wanted. And a search to see if it already exists.

Note Kdevelop will also be coming to windows.

[Carlo Bramix]

In my opinion, the BEST free IDE for developing Win32 application is:

MINGW DEVELOPER STUDIO

http://www.parinyasoft.com/

Sorry, but Dev-CPP crashes every 5 minutes on my PC.
MDS is not opersource but 100% free.
It has just one limit for me: it doesn't show assembly code.
Or at least, I was never able to show assembly code during a debug session.
It's very, but very light weight and stable.
It has also the same "look and feel" of Microsoft Visual C, although its editor has some limitations (for example, macro support is missing).
I recommend this tool to all people: beginners and experts.

Sincerely,

Carlo Bramini.

[mikedep333]

Sorry, but Dev-CPP crashes every 5 minutes on my PC.

Try the maintained branch of it, wxDev-CPP.
http://wxdsgn.sourceforge.net/

[elektrik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBASIC Little better than Qbasic.

IDE's are not exactly simple to write. There is the option of notepad++ http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net. This is not the only option. Notepad++ can be customized to be able to open help files.

Even before this could be started a more clear idea of exactly what is wanted. And a search to see if it already exists.

Note Kdevelop will also be coming to windows.

<sarcasm>Oh come on Oiaohm, you know you can create an IDE in 20 minutes with spit and trained monkies</sarcasm>

[oiaohm]

I can throw together a basic IDE using notepad++ as a base in 20 mins. So if trained monkies took that long they are slow.

Problem most people want a dialog editor. And other features.

That is what makes it complex. If I know what someone wants there is a chance I might be able to build it without writing code just customizing and interlinking open source programs..

[elektrik]

I can throw together a basic IDE using notepad++ as a base in 20 mins. So if trained monkies took that long they are slow.

Problem most people want a dialog editor. And other features.

That is what makes it complex. If I know what someone wants there is a chance I might be able to build it without writing code just customizing and interlinking open source programs..

you did see the sarcasm tags right?

[oiaohm]

Yes I did elektrik. Problem is you line makes it look harder than what it is. I missed the reason why its hard.

Current problem people ask for IDE to be included may times not once have they made a list of features to use as a base to search and build from.

wxdsgn might be good but it is written in pascal. So bad news its outside the rules of what is in the reactos tree. C C++ or asm are allowed langs. Of course porting it to C or C++ is a option.

Mingw Developer Studio is closed so not usable as eteepell asked.

So what exactly makes them great.