Is ROS going towards OSS file system rather than NTFS?

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forart
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Post by forart » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:49 am

it doesn't look like OpenBFS is anything special.
Oh, well... not my words.

Bruno G. Albuquerque writes "It is a 64 bit, multithreaded and journaled file system that supports unlimited number os extended attributes and has support some database-like functions (like ultra-fast searches based on an index). OpenBFS is written in C++ and is licensed under the MIT license."

Edit: Dominic Giampaolo's Practical File System Design with the Be Filesystem
Last edited by forart on Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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oiaohm
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I miss this before

Post by oiaohm » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:56 am

F-full ownership
O-ability to change ownership
R-read (list)
X-execute (run or open)
D-delete
W-append and modify
Linux has most of these on all major filesystem or able to be created.
extentend Attrs.

Linux filesystem have a lot longer attribs 3 layers of read write execute for user group and everyone. Ie X R and W. Extended attributes could be used to do full ownership ability to change ownership and delete even just append.

Note under linux means to change ownership is controled by ACL and the directory that the file is in ie no ACL stoping you and the directory is yours you can change ownership.

Ie Xfs Ext3 ReiserFS all support extended attributes Ext2 section did not have it most common problem with samba no where to store the extra info ie Don't run samba something that does not support extended attributes.

I don't know why these have to be the same. Does not windows XP run on fat32 and its lacking all of that. So there sould be a code work around.

Most of the features you require are in the ACL add ons to the file systems

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Re: I miss this before

Post by Floyd » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:30 am

oiaohm wrote:F-full ownership
O-ability to change ownership
R-read (list)
X-execute (run or open)
D-delete
W-append and modify
Linux has most of these on all major filesystem or able to be created.
extentend Attrs.

Linux filesystem have a lot longer attribs 3 layers of read write execute for user group and everyone. Ie X R and W. Extended attributes could be used to do full ownership ability to change ownership and delete even just append.
As far as I know, linux only has RWX where W also grants D permissions (where it does not in NTFS) and R translates as RX (where it does not in NTFS). So saying that they're the same, they're not. Also NTFS also supports permissions by owner, group and user just like Ext3 (under advanced).

I'm not saying "use NTFS", i am saying translating between the way Linux does permissions and the way Windows does permissions can cause problems. So what i was saying "have a filesystem that does it the way NTFS would [to minimize these problems]". Nor am i saying that ReactOS has to have 1 and only 1 filesystem. Indeed NT4 supported FAT, VFAT, HPFS and NTFS, 2000 supported FAT, FAT32 and NTFS (and read/wrote to VFAT but you couldn't install using it), XP supports FAT32 (read/writes FAT) and NTFS. For secure network access it wants to use NTFS and therefore, if ReactOS is ever going to work in a windows network or use programs that use NTFS permissions, you are either going to have to 1) translate or 2) offer a native system.

[edit: some grammar corrections]
And there are a few programs that do require NTFS, these are mostly programs that run on servers but they do exist.
Last edited by Floyd on Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SirTalon
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Post by SirTalon » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:10 am

Linux FSs support extended ACLs (at least all that NTFS supports). And basic permissions in *nix looks more like:

Owner: Read, Write, Execute, Set UserID (SUID, it will be executed w/ the owner's ID)
Group: Read, Write, Execute, Set GroupID (SGID, it will be executed w/ the group's ID)
Other: Read, Write, Execute, Sticky (only owner can delete files in the directory)

Also Reiser 4 supports unlimited metadata, and allows plugins (such as security plugins, that means the security attributes are unlimitedly extendable).

Also since XP can run on Fat32 (i.e. no permissions what so ever), I doubt there are any programs that rely on NTFS (of course not counting programs thats whole purpose is to maintain NTFS
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oiaohm
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Thanks Sir Talon I keep forgeting about Sticky bits

Post by oiaohm » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:53 am

I was not thinking about extended ACL I was thinking about Extended Attributes. ACL on linux is formed inside Extended Attributes on the filesystem. So any extra NTFS partical information that reactos most likely could be stored.

Also difference between the linux form and windows form could be stored in a reactos tag in the Extended Attributes. Note this is not a major problem its only a minor one. Please note supporting Extended Attributes fix unlocks Ext2, Ext3, IBM JFS, ReiserFS, and SGI XFS filesystems from the ones I know. This could at long last let windows work correctly on nfs system too the difference destory windows linking in here to share files directly with linux.

The translator only has to be created once. Note if you choose to forget linux direct compad some of them flaging problems are not a problem. Please note windows NTFS file system is no where near the max defence linux systems can have. Ie lids has time locks on access rights and selinux provides other defences. This will unlock more filesystems.

uniQ
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Post by uniQ » Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:19 am

SirTalon wrote:Also since XP can run on Fat32 (i.e. no permissions what so ever), I doubt there are any programs that rely on NTFS (of course not counting programs thats whole purpose is to maintain NTFS
Try installing Virtual Svr 2004 on FAT32 (Like I tried). It wont let you.

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Pythagoras1
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Post by Pythagoras1 » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:41 am

i'd say, implement reiser4 first to make use of the full filesystem api. the reiser4 linux implementation has a very clean code and might not be difficult to port. a side effect may be great attention to this project by many people because of implementing this new godlike file system.

of course ntfs is a must-be file system - at least read only - but since reactos is far away from an end user ready operating system i'd say that ntfs has low priority at the moment.

also note: when porting reiser4 to an "installable file system driver" for reactos we automatically have a fully functional windows version of reiser4 too. and maybe won't need ntfs any more.

EDIT:
file system utilities: ftp://ftp.namesys.com/pub/reiser4progs
grub patches (may be usable for freeloader support): ftp://ftp.namesys.com/pub/reiser4progs/grub/
fs driver source for linux 2.6: ftp://ftp.namesys.com/pub/reiser4-for-2.6/

Jaix
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ReactOS WinNT compatible

Post by Jaix » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:03 am

I haven't read everything in this thread because I find it rather "uninteresting", but I have some thoughts that I don't think we can ignore here. We are talking about building a WinNT+ compatible operating system... ...we have no alternative to making a NTFS compatible FS driver. Which other drivers we create is a bonus not a thing we can say "rather then" about, ROS is NOT going towards OSS file system rather than NTFS but maybe that too.

Dr. Fred
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Re: ReactOS WinNT compatible

Post by Dr. Fred » Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:33 am

Jaix wrote:...we have no alternative to making a NTFS compatible FS driver. .
please read the middel of the posting above yours.

Jaix
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Re: ReactOS WinNT compatible

Post by Jaix » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:26 pm

Dr. Fred wrote:
Jaix wrote:...we have no alternative to making a NTFS compatible FS driver. .
please read the middel of the posting above yours.
Yes I know, many of the ideas of this thread is good, and I guess it's mostly about timing but NTFS will be one of the most important FS's for ROS for a long time to come. But of course development can be done on FAT or anything that does the thing.
PS. I wasn't aiming for your post Fred.

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Post by A-v-S » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:03 pm

I agree that file system support is not a priority at the moment,
first we need more software/driver compatibility,
but when more windows programs are working,
we need supoort to use the windows parition
( at least read support with support of installing microsoft ntfs.sys )
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Jaix
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NTFS from WinNT

Post by Jaix » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:39 pm

A-v-S wrote:I agree that file system support is not a priority at the moment,
first we need more software/driver compatibility,
but when more windows programs are working,
we need supoort to use the windows parition
( at least read support with support of installing microsoft ntfs.sys )
Most of us has a legal copy of a WinNT+ OS, why not make a install routine to get the NTFS driver from the original CD until a real GPL driver is finished? This could be good for some other parts of Windows too (ofcourse only until everything else is ready).

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Post by A-v-S » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:20 pm

Yes, that would be nice,
and the installer should also be fixed to suport more primary paritions, cause installing ROS is really a problem,
have to use a test pc, install ROS first, and then install other OS.
(or use emlator, but i think emulator is slow)
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Floridajin
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File systems

Post by Floridajin » Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:20 pm

I was wondering, does anyone know if ReactOS will use the same filesystem driver system as the Windows family? I've heard that Windows filesystems have the directory listing / query "code" (ie for wildcards) built into the filesystem driver rather than the shell or list program. If that's true, it's going to throw a monkey wrench into porting any Linux or other Unix FS, as I believe these OSes leave such queries to the shell / "ls" program. Can anyone clear this up?

oiaohm
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This is not a problem

Post by oiaohm » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:45 am

I was wondering, does anyone know if ReactOS will use the same filesystem driver system as the Windows family? I've heard that Windows filesystems have the directory listing / query "code" (ie for wildcards) built into the filesystem driver rather than the shell or list program. If that's true, it's going to throw a monkey wrench into porting any Linux or other Unix FS, as I believe these OSes leave such queries to the shell / "ls" program. Can anyone clear this up?
So Does linux it hides in libc not the kernel the ls command calls libc that does the wildcards on most linuxs(this still can be embeded in the ls command). This is driver construction nothing more.

Where do I find a complet list of windows ntfs filesystem flags and Acl format. Looking at Dazuko extention for linux. Create a directory with everything in mode 0777 but dazuko controlling all files from extendend attrs. This would be handy because reactos could be a single user on linux ie that is the reactos directory I don't need to access that. But have it full internal options as windows.

Then it is just creating the driver interface to windows and we have a complete system. Got to love linux you can add your own permision control system.

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