best way recover reactos debate

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What methord is best methord to recover a system?

Poll ended at Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:44 am

Graphical
13
54%
Command line
11
46%
 
Total votes: 24

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 am

best way recover reactos debate

Post by oiaohm » Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:44 am

Let start this off.

Electrix and me going into a war over this topic.

From my point of view the comand line from dos histroy to the windows command line is basicly old hat.

I would love to see bash provide since linux admins need to know how to works to to customise the system anyhow since personal with current skills in this type of command line exist and are highly skill in the use of its advanced features.

But the major thing I wish to see is stuff like a PE disk for recovery.
Linux ultimate PE type disk is Knoppix fully graphical if user has a cdrom drive and a burner user can burn off there critical records before doing anything important. If user has network can upload there critical records before recovering the system. While remaining the complete time in graphical. User has no reason to touch the command line at all. Only reason to touch the command line is if the video card is not compad with the PE disk. I would guess that a person who installs reactos and gets it to work and is provided with a way of making a PE disk would if there video were not compad with the normal install.

Really in my mind more users know they way around the graphical then the command line. All tasks that are normally done by command line can be done by built wizards. Most users know how to use these. Since installing windows is done is a wizard format.

Just a note to electrix the simple tools to fix the system Microsoft does make as part of their PE disks. Guess what home users miss out.

Some of the major assumptions I make is that at first reactos will target the lower end of the market. People who cannot afford to buy a computer but get given one without a OS.(Yes this is really nice of the goverment in my country a computer and no operating system) So have no support contract and have no money for techs so would have to fix any problem that comes along. Currently guess what its piratey gone mad. Cause of this problem is the Microsoft School licence agreement. You will not sell or give away a computer containing a School licenced version of windows. Since the computers were bought without a OS there is no OS.

Basicly a market that needs a OS a cheep OS when you are givening away a computer you really cannot charge for it and you don't want to have costs. Linux is not suitable on alot of these machines because they don't have 128 megs of ram they are lucky to have 32 megs. Ie reactos would be ideal if it was stable.

The people who get these computer might be 500 km away from anywhere or more. So calling tech support because they don't know how to fix something is not really a option. So tools should be provided that anyone who knows there basic way around windows should be able to get to graphical mode from a boot cdrom and complete backup or/and repair their system with the least amount of knollage. Backing up work from school assignement before reinstalling would be a good idea.

This is the common tech line in my country windows does not work just format and reinstall it. The warranties in my country are horbal. They contain a clase that basicly says we don't have to give a stuff about your data as long as we return the machine to you working we have done our job. Yes this is what most techs do here why else its simpler and its your problem because you did not backup. Basicly lets try to be nice to our users give them means and options to save there data even repair their machines with the least knollage. They have to know there way around the graphical to use the machine. You don't have to know the command line to use the machine so why should we ask our users to know that at any point. The only people who need to know the command line at this time are people repairing them heck in this country some them don't. O well windows is broken format and reinstall hope you did a backup all done from the windows XP installing mode they even do this if you loss you admin password.

elektrik
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:20 am

Post by elektrik » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:13 am

Electrix and me going into a war over this topic.
Sorry, I'm not going to get sucked into a "war" as you say-I was merely debating my points....

I've done so...moving on...

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 am

Ok electrik

Post by oiaohm » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:04 am

War is the way I take it is Debate that both sides have there point of view and both are unmoveable. A debate is not a debate in my mind when nether party appear to be finding common ground. I class this as war. The idea is Fight it out find out where the flaws are. Please at least post you core point of view and let someone else see it.

Note my core point of view has not moved a inch. Has yours. Basicly we need to solve this or there is a risk of us geing into another debate(how you put it) at anough time if this is not settled.

peterw
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:32 pm

Post by peterw » Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:58 am

Gentlemen, please don't take this the wrong way, but I think this matter should be forgotten.

The following is my opinion:
I don't believe it is good for morale in the ReactOS camp, is not directly relevant (let's get a stable operating system first; the time your discussion has taken would have been plenty of time to implement both and then let users choose) and prospective ReactOS convertees reading the forum may be put off by the dispute. Also I think it is bad trying to draw neutral forum participants into one camp or the other.

Deciding and implementing the recovery system can be sorted out quite easily later.

best regards

steveh
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:02 pm

Command-line easier?

Post by steveh » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:10 pm

I think it would be easier to do recover in command-line, isn't it?

One could imagine sort of a "reactos single user console" or "reactos command line console" for special actions like recovery, backup, restore, registry repair or optimizing...

The probable advantage is that command line works with far less files open, i.e. the registry...

GUI NEEDS the registry while running, may it only be for the font, the screen resolution, the colours...?

Conclusion: nice to have GUI, but command-line is also good, if it simplifies implementation a lot?

Even in command line nice looking things can be done. Remember a bunch of "historic" DOS applications like Norton utilities for DOS, NAV for DOS, ... Windows scandisk in non-GUI mode,

Bond007s
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:09 am

CLI or Graphical?

Post by Bond007s » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:13 pm

Use the ReactOS Live CD to recover if you want a graphical Recovery and if not well use the Recovery Console provided with reactOS (and yess it is planned to be a CMD based console) Installation CD. Two CDs, both options. Really both need to be provided. CMD consoles allow for quicker changes in some regards and Graphical in others. Why do you think that all modern OSs use CMD and Graphical commands that do the same thing. Both are needed. Windows tried moving away from Command Line Interfaces to a more graphical approach only to see that both were desired. Thus later version of Windows (aka 2003) contain both and a lot more CMD commands were brought back while expanding the original number of commands. Why has Linux hit off well, becuase it now has a nice Graphical approach while retaining the original Command Line Interface. Certain things can be done faster in graphical and certain things faster in a Command Line Interface...

So I say both are essential...

Elledan
Posts: 363
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Elledan » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:13 pm

When I hear 'system recovery' and 'GUI' together I first think of a simple DOS-like GUI, or at most one such as those used by HDD diagnostic tools.

Both GUI and CLI can be useful and both can be mutilated to violate every part of the KISS principle.

ea
Developer
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Italy, EU

KISS: recovery should be done w/o environment subsystems

Post by ea » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:33 pm

Hi,
this is just a note from a developer. As ROS gets its internals design from NT's (and back from DEC Prism's), you have to keep in mind that high level operating systems (Win32, OS/2, POSIX, VMS...) should be off when you attempt a system recovery. This can be performed easily in ROS (just like in NT). As environment subsystems are run by the Session Manager (SM), what you really need is a bare text shell that is run by the SM before any of them. We could call it a "single user ROS" or a "maintenance mode ROS".

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 am

Hmm we have about a 50/50 split.

Post by oiaohm » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:06 am

This is verry interesting.

GUI starting up is like insert and knoppix that I use for recovery all the time.

Lots of the time I don't touch command line.

Reason my recovery disks are like ubcd(menu to every tool).

I never normal go to the command line I don't need to in most cases.

I expect alot more in recovery mode. This does not void the KISS system.

Keep It Simple Hmm depends what you call simple. The registry is not a problem in a GUI mode due to the GUI mode coming from a independant disk.

counting_pine
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:44 pm
Location: Fallowfield

Post by counting_pine » Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:24 pm

I think both the command line and the GUI have their advantages. For example, the GUI is generally more user-friendly, while the command line has more power, and can take advantage of batch files. I don't think we should try and get rid of either. Instead, we should just try and provide tools for both environments, when it's practical.
I have to say, I think this poll is pointless, and I will not be voting in it.

chris319
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:43 pm

Post by chris319 » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:08 pm

I would love to see bash provide
Why should bash be part of a Windows-clone operating system?

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 am

Post by oiaohm » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:05 am

Bash provides far more scripting options than dos while running at command line.

Bash provided stuff like functions and means of adding a script full of functions to the current script just by running so you can reduce the size of a lot of scripts.

Bash supports single line solutions. The ; is the end of line in bash.

Bash support and m4 would allow autoconf based programs to configure to build.

People using Linux to edit script in the startup of linux really do need to know how to script in it. Since nearly all distros use bash for this section.

This is something I normally add anyhow. Also its part of posix system from microsoft under unix tools.

This is really a sub topic this is something I wish to see if we are going to have it any how we might as well make it use of it. It a real pitty to place a good tool in the back room where no one see it and never get used.

ScoTTie
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:40 am

Post by ScoTTie » Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:51 am

oiaohm wrote:Bash provides far more scripting options than dos while running at command line.

Bash provided stuff like functions and means of adding a script full of functions to the current script just by running so you can reduce the size of a lot of scripts.

Bash supports single line solutions. The ; is the end of line in bash.

Bash support and m4 would allow autoconf based programs to configure to build.

People using Linux to edit script in the startup of linux really do need to know how to script in it. Since nearly all distros use bash for this section.

This is something I normally add anyhow. Also its part of posix system from microsoft under unix tools.

This is really a sub topic this is something I wish to see if we are going to have it any how we might as well make it use of it. It a real pitty to place a good tool in the back room where no one see it and never get used.
But in no way is it a clone of cmd, id rather see cygwin running. Plus whats stopping you from installing it yourself?

im not saying it wouldnt be a good idea, but reactos is about making an NT clone first and formost, which means compatability.

oiaohm
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:40 am

Post by oiaohm » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:36 am

Hmm rescue mode if command line is provided. Nothing on a PE disk as long as its a option to add software. A lot could be on just a command line provided

Posix section of windows has bash so I see no reason not to provide it as a option. Note the Posix section here would have to improve. Yes its under development. Current version in reactos has a bare shell but it really should develop to bash to be compad thinking that bash is the current standard now.

Basicly cygwin is lower performance than the posix section. So provide the tools by posix and use them. Ie cygwin is a slow work around really ment for win9x series and this is a NT set. Window NT had posix sections so alot of the tools will directly run on the platform. Just bash should not be overlooked. Cygwin compad really sould not be required most of what the Cygwin dll does will be done by the posix section. Better fix for the Cygwin dll might be a new dll linked down to the posix layour.

Compatability is one issue. True bash is not a clone of dos but it always been there in some form hidden away in a extention it really does not need to stay there.

Sarocet
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:06 pm
Location: España (Spain)

Post by Sarocet » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:21 pm

Although a GUI interface can be easier almost always, I think command line MUST support ANY action done with GUI.
It is frustating not being able to change windows options with a root cmd only because control panel is integrated with explorer and cannot be run with different credentials. In fact, you can run some parts by knowing the cpl name (not always easy) and sometimes the same cpl controls different sets so you can't access more than one.
Did you know I use the DIR command instead of the Win XP search window tool because it's more reliable for me? It doesn't look into Zip files (why can't I disable it?) nor freeze if I click Cancel (yes, it does, many times, I don't know why).
Commands are (almost) always much faster than the GUI ones (try MOVE or COPY on large files, they can do it ten times while you still see the progress bar window changing the time left). Of course, it has a reason: they are specialized and little programs, not a huge explorer system. But there's a fact, not matter the reason.
Even Microsoft understood these things, giving the reg command to access registry from command line (not to talk the useful tab option or the annoying adding of TREE command, so time later MS-DOS ages).

One thing i would want to have on a command line is a network config utility.
I have passed some afternoons browsing through the NET command and its chm to config a net (sorry, I couldn't. At last I had to use an install CD and use the Control Panel). I can't use Internet on Knoppix only because i use static ip. Knoppix calls for DHCP and, as it doesn't answer closes the control programs. However, i am SURE ther is a command to config it (not found what, info thanked).

With a command line you can browse dirs, surf the net (Lynx), get files (wget), use ftp, edit text files... almost anything... except using images (although you can change and resize them with the command line).
Moreover they are the simplest way to use a computer: text mode. No matter you monitor resolution or if you are 'telnetting' (or ssh). How are all the shells given? Not exactly with VNC :wink:

Command line is needed even if it won't be used for most users. And for program interactions. The simplest way: stdio. Then, specialised programs shoul support it.... but this is another story...

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