ROS design suggestion

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Do you like it?

YES, I really like it
66
81%
it's not much better than the old one
12
15%
NO, I don't like it at all
3
4%
 
Total votes: 81

counting_pine
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Post by counting_pine » Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:57 am

I can see this has turned into Yet Another Start Menu Design Argument.
Since this is a battle of opinions, I can't see anyone winning.
I suggest in the long term it would be best to make all these elements customisable, but default to the Win2K or WinXP layout.

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:12 am

Now MadHat and Crappish Cool it

I have tolarated Crappish upto this point.(Remove the last 4 letter of his name from the sentence yes this is a low blow)

I do not totally aggree with MadHat but I am prepared to give feed back and see where it develops. Ie the first one of MadHat's I knew something was wrong but what at the time I could not say what was wrong so I took some wide guesses.

The work produced by the both of you have its place.

Useless Graphical element. Yes some people will see that.

Other people will want the Graphical element.

Basicly if both of you can look at each others work and give positive feed back we will end up with something good.

I want to see no more negitive feed back from either of you.

MadRat I was very happy with you until you restored to gutter fighting yourself.

Nit picking is the final job neither interfaces are even close to this point.

Heck by fighting to hard you might force away a person better than the both of you. No one will what to publish there work when they are going to pulled apart. Good feedback works saying that I just hate Big icons or you have wasted space. Is not exceptable. Suggesting stuff that will make it look better in a nice way is all that is required. Pulling appart someone else work just because they say something bad about yours is also not exceptable.

Even worse MadRat was posting his work without permission.
MadRat should have simply said if you better one post it. Because he might have been work on one he had not placed anywhere. We might never see it due to your actions. Because he/she would be right to think that you would pull the next one appart as well.

I want the best interface I don't give a rats who does it. Only way to get there is to have many different forms and see what one works best.

Crappish Yours is more Win98 and MadRat is More XP. Reactos need a look that is little like windows but it has to be a little different so people remember Reactos.

And I am more Linux. I have lived threw more than one desktop war.

Some basic rules.
1. How hard is it to see what I am looking. Quicker the find the better(Large Icons normally win here but not allways as MadRats first one proved)
2. Speed of rendering Xfce is a good example of this its keeping in the fight with KDE and Gnome due to speed even that is not the best to use.
So a fast plain interace and a slow graphic interface are required.
3. Being a perfect copycat means that you copy all the same defects. So the user has no reason to swap so is almost pointless.
4. Changing everything at once can be to hard on users.

Keep the four in mind they do help.

And to anyone else who thinks about posting negitive feed back. Stick you hands in you mouth and keep them there untill you cool off and post something postitive.

And I would like to see both MadRat and Crappish appolgise to each other. Because you have both done the wrong things.

PS Crappish You have never seen UI design flaws get a old version of blender that is UI design flaw. Ie what User Interface just keyboard short cuts and mouse movements. Works well when you know it. Same with Emacs. Both lasted for years and are still here. Funny part is keyboard only interfaces on Linux still have a market I really don't know why.

PS2 :D Crappish Desk problem Get a board. Surf Board, bit of timber, Box folded into a board really last restore Ironing Board(only some of these work). When ever I am short of a desk all my couchs have arm rests. So the Board is placed between the arm rests and becomes my desk. Its allot simpler to type on.
Correctly foldered and stacked boxed make a great monitor stand. Else surf on line for the cardboard computer desk (http://www.charm.net/~jriley/cardbrd.html). Yes you can make a desk from scrap cardboard I have never been that in need.

Crappish
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Post by Crappish » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:10 am

oiaohm, how nice from you calling me names. Just what I need.

For christs sake. I will not cool down as there is nothing for me to cool down from. (except the wave of frustration that just smashed on the shore)

Here goes:

How can you say that what I said about the icons was not feedback? What do you consider as feedback if not stating issues and perhaps proposing replacement?

Let's take an example: The icon topic. I wasn't saying that I hate the crammed feeling I simply stated the design rulers that would give the layout better results. I don't see a single point where I stated that I utterly completely hate something, I simply stated some issues on them. It's called feedback.
Now, why don't I tell how to make it better every single time? Because those are the things I have repeated the numerous times, over and over again and I'm finding it harder and harder to do it yet another time. Hence, I merely pointed the issues. Specially as the very information is easily accessible for anyone.

Now, excuse me if I don't bother writing twenty lines of pointless excusing before I state my matters.


If graphical element offers nothing more than simple advert and is placed in the way of sacrificing usability over "eye candy" then in what way it is not useless?

I know that people want graphical elements, again, I never said anything else. If you look close enough I have clearly stated numerous times that the effect of, so called, "eye candy" should not be underestimated. It's the part where "eye candy" becomes drag to the UI that I don't understand.

Yes, I have used Blender, the old and the new ones. Who says I haven't? And yes, I have used emacs.

Perhaps you could make a table from surfboard and boxes but I just don't want anything like that in my apartment. Specially since the new table is already ordered. The cardboards are occupational hazard, nothing more. I don't see how this is an issue for you? I already have to write long studies for school and I really don't want to split my back completely. Hence, I wait for the freaking table.

You don't want to see any negative feedback from me? Then how the hell am I supposed to tell someone what they have done wrong?
(Someone peeks into the gasoline canister with the lighter and I'm supposed to pat his back? For extreme example.)


Madrat, what is background of those? On what basis did I do them? Not to mention, where are the actual explanations? Why do they look like the way they do? Besides, picture is merely an reflection of the actual UI.

And MadRat... Could you replace the big picture with a link?

I don't want this to become personal. I really don't.
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:31 am

I simply stated the design rulers
Where did those rules come from??

No interface have to stick to any partical rules. It the final tests that are importing.
Someone peeks into the gasoline canister with the lighter and I'm supposed to pat his back? For extreme example.
Guess what normal example. I had to deal with this for real so its not extreme at all.
4 way to stuff this up.
Number one try to tell the person in a hard way to disarm.
Number two forget to address the issue why he/she is doing it.
Number three think that you are right person might have the ligher and a gasoline canister filled with desial(spelt wrong truck fuel) a lighter will not light it as long as it does not come into contact with it ie no fumes. Ie its perfectly safe just does not look that way it also could be a water container. Yes I have done the lighter with a known water contator ie I had tipped some of the water out first to be sure Steal out side can be little hard to tell how full it is.
Number four say anything without thinking.

First question Stop what is in that canister?(get facts first)
Or if you know it's Petrol. Hey thats Petrol do you really want to kill me?(hope the answer is not yes or you have a real problem most people tring to kill self don't want to take other people with them) Normally enought to get the person to stop and talk and work the problem out. If it turned out to be petrol you have a problem.

90 percent of the time slightly shove the person in the right direction and their mind will solve the rest.

Look at my suggestions to MadRat they are set to achive the same goals without getting into a fight. He improves what he is doing and we get to see if his idea has legs without placing any other rules on it. Ie for some reason he might have found something better than what the rules say. It happens from time to time. Gentle shove into the right direction. Good UI Normally are simpler on the eyes. Using wrong size icons is not a problem that can be changed latter. Ie pick you target. Only provide advice on how their idea could be improved. You can work to the end goal without force. Sugesting Improvements that will fix what you have negitive feed back about is better more likely that the person will do it.
Try introducing smaller icons and some space.
This is perfect I know you can do perfect why I am so annoyed with you.
You tend to stuff too big icons too close to each other.
One of the basic guidelines for visual design is use space. With efficent space usage human eye knows where to focus instead of bouncing back and forth between elements.
Woffle trying to make yourself sound superior. You might not know you are even doing it. First like You tend You are... Person attack this is not suggesting this is telling. Quoting basic guidelines to Visual design. Yes I know them but most of the are common sence that a person will release when playing with their work. You are making yourself seam above everyone by doing this and increasing the risk of a fight. Also guidelines out of context is not good ie all guide lines or none. If you have guide lines you think that will help the person improve provide a link to and recommend the person reads this because it might help them improve their idea.
Well, if you want larger icons you have to make the menu itself bigger so that there is enough space between each element.
Negitive again. Well if you want<attacking.
I suggest providing more space between elements and increasing the size of menu to make the menu simpler to read.
Notice same thing nicer put both after to get the same point across.
First big clue to negtive is the You word.

Becareful with rules to keep them with their text.
A) distinct visual clues
B) efficently use space (and you have to be able to answer why do you use space)
C) create lines with elements (align things clearly)
Not everyone is going to know what distinct visual clues means. Reason why these should not be quoted outside the guideline books. If you want to use this provide the links so the people reading can get the examples and understand.

Common way of untrained speech fighters. Beat oppenent by taking stuff out without the complete details so you win because people cannot understand. I guess you don't think you are superior to everyone else. Stuff like this make it appear that way. Reason why I left you alown because I though you were stuck up to put it bluntly.
And again, highly valuable target space utterly wasted by useless graphical element...
Question what if any useful feedback did this provide. What graphical element? No useful feedback fully negitive completely useless and waste of post space.

Guess what Idol judges are the master of the personal attack and acting superior. Yes you will feel like a judge there until you learn to fight friendly.

People feel better treated if you dont attack them far less fighting. Most of the time I have said the same things as you same as other people and have not upset MadRat or anyone else. No personal attack. Now except it and fix it and aplogise for lack of knollage on the polite way.

Eye candy becomes a drag on the UI true it can. Problem is people want Eye candy so we need some. XP is slower than Win98 but people still want XP. This is not worth fighting about let the people work it out they will find what they will execpt or not.

Reason I would have thought for a person who has followed stuff like Blender would have known that interfaces have verry few hard and fast rules. Emacs even prove it more.
The cardboards are occupational hazard
True cardboards can be problems. Treated cardboards are not. Shellac treated does not burn simplely or get eaten but you do have to paint over that so Shallac does not end up on chair or you. All I was trying to do is make you live a little better. You do know that you can get a House built out of Cardboard. It is not a fire or a occupational hazard if done right.

Last time I built a cardboard chair table I made it on Kitchen bench and takes a day to dry in my car port with the shellac and a day to dry with finsh coat. Not verry hard on back advantage light weight. Good part about being cheep is that when the new table arrives you throw it in the bin. But it is up to you all I can do is give you the ideas.

MadRat
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Post by MadRat » Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:08 am

No offense taken from any previous feedback I've seen - its just feedback. I would just like more specific examples. My philosoply in life is if one is willing to criticize then that same person should be willing to demonstrate the alternative. My challenge to Crappish is not to belittle him but to get him to contribute rather than critique.
from Crappish
"Madrat, what is background of those? On what basis did I do them? Not to mention, where are the actual explanations? Why do they look like the way they do? Besides, picture is merely an reflection of the actual UI."
Crappish, your first picture came from this page 2 of the "Importance of UI" thread:

http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic. ... hpcecujrqt

Crappish, your second picture came from this page 7 of the "Importance of UI" thread:

http://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic. ... hpcecujrqt

I hardly posted them out of context or without permission as these are your previous attempts to show the start menu in action. The links from previous posts are fair game for argument sake in my opinion.
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Crappish
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Post by Crappish » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:33 pm

oiaohm wrote:Where did those rules come from??

No interface have to stick to any partical rules. It the final tests that are importing.
Well, you could try Jakob Nielsen or Bruce Tognazzini for for starters on UI design. For visual design... I really don't know the actual origin but that's just the way things are.

The reason I gave only the guidelines is that I have already explained things nicely and, like I stated, no-one listens. Now, if someone doesn't understand them and is actually interested on designing/improving their design people could go and find out. I don't think I'm asking too much.

Besides, it's not like you can overrule things like Fitt's law with design extraodrinaire. It just is. Hence modern UI (with traditional devices) has to live with Fitt's law.
oiaohm wrote:
crappish wrote:And again, highly valuable target space utterly wasted by useless graphical element...
Question what if any useful feedback did this provide. What graphical element? No useful feedback fully negitive completely useless and waste of post space.
A excellent example how things go. I already stated the exact same thing in page three, hence such "feedback". Now, if that first feedback would have been read such error could been avoided.

oiaohm wrote:Guess what Idol judges are the master of the personal attack and acting superior. Yes you will feel like a judge there until you learn to fight friendly.
Well, I ment it in the context of people getting annoyed by them because the judges just can't handle all the crap people throw at them. Now, I'm not saying I am the professional related to Idols judges, I just said that I'm beginning to feel like them because all of the things I say, no-one seems to listen as I see the same basic mistakes repeated over and over again. It's becoming harder and harder to explain everything every single time. Hence the "feel like Idols judge" -thing. Like I explained already.

And again. Eye candy is necessary, didn't I agree on that already? But eye candy can be built around UI, not the other way around.
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

counting_pine
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Post by counting_pine » Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:53 pm

Crappish wrote:
oiaohm wrote:
crappish wrote:And again, highly valuable target space utterly wasted by useless graphical element...
Question what if any useful feedback did this provide. What graphical element? No useful feedback fully negitive completely useless and waste of post space.
Why do you consider the area on the left to be valuable target space? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but when people select an item in the Start Menu, they don't reach it by running the mouse up the left hand side of it. If they want to select a submenu, then the mouse would be in entirely the wrong position. The sidebar graphic may be useless, but with the right picture it looks good, and it doesn't do any harm.

Crappish
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Post by Crappish » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:04 pm

counting_pine wrote:Why do you consider the area on the left to be valuable target space? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but when people select an item in the Start Menu, they don't reach it by running the mouse up the left hand side of it. If they want to select a submenu, then the mouse would be in entirely the wrong position. The sidebar graphic may be useless, but with the right picture it looks good, and it doesn't do any harm.
In some times it is true that usually only the submenu is accessed, however it is still basically a bad practice. Besides, like in the latter study, there are several menu items. Hence, user is forced to do unnecessary targeting actions when i.e. accessing shutdown.

Besides, I don't really see the vertical ad as necessary graphics. Not to mention, in nowdays there should be a clear clue of current user, and writing it vertical isn't just going to cut it. Bad readability, bad practice.
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:18 pm

Well, you could try Jakob Nielsen or Bruce Tognazzini for for starters on UI design. For visual design... I really don't know the actual origin but that's just the way things are.
Good the answer I wanted. I though so. It would either be Microsofts style or Borlands or IBM's. Nothing just is the way things are. There is always a source. Like the nasa shuttle soild fuel rockets width being based on 2 horses asses.

Jakob Nielson http://www.useit.com/ or Bruce Tognazzini http://www.asktog.com/menus/designMenu.html
work does not explain the out lying applications that don't follow there rules yet remain and in some cases liked extreamly and in performance tests they are the best way they are. The exceptions are extreamly annoying to work out why they are working so the new version does not slow employees down. Normally key combination or something. If you remove it you will stuff it up completely. Also Tognazzini has a mistake with Fitts the four corners of the screen Under linux or mult screens the required pining effect does not exist. So using the four corners can slow users down not speed them up.

Recomendations change over time. Help was at one time always on the right hand side of the screen do you see that now.

For anyone who does not know Fitts' Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts'_law(great a bug)
Fitt's law is a good law but not totally effective for gui creating. Its impossiable to workout with constant effects with 2 axis systems. 2 axis systems are better tested by humans. Large Icons help with Fitt's since it gives a good target. Also does not work with human optmisation. Windows XP watch a few people longer the user the more likely to use the Windows Key for menu even when holding the mouse. So the mouse starting point is anywhere on the screen to any object in the menu making Fitt's law very hard to apply due to no constant starting point. Ie somethines placing the programs at the top of the menu is strangely faster. Not what normal Fitts will tell you. It also forgets human error. Larger icons normally lower human error rates even taken more space and by Fitt's Law can read as slower but under human tests turn out to be faster on average due to a lower error rate. I have learn almost all the rules of UI have exceptions when you move to GUI. Keyboard and Mouse intragration gives different effects. Human testing is required before ruling stuff out completely.

If we were going by Fitts' Completely there would be no memu on the bottom edge of screen it would be on the top edge like apple. I don't think windows XP users would like it even that is 5 times faster by Fits and only max of 2 times faster compared to experenced Windows personal pressing the windows key to open menu.

Also you have proved self to be a bottom up programmer Microsoft Style. Some programmers are top down some GTK/QT programmers. Both methord are vaild. Ie you start with the flash and sort out how it will fit. Most common for art creators for some reason not the normal GUI creators. They do create good stuff but it does take time and being prepared to give advice and hold ones words since they will not always listen to the first time you tell them sometimes its the 100 time or more before they get it. Learnt this from web creation. I am the back ground programmer with GUI advice skill but no artwork skill so I have to live with the art people.

If there is a bad interface with good Eye candy and a Good interface appears but with Bad Eye candy. Take the good bits and endup nice interface from it. So I want as many people as we have the most parts to work with to build the best.

If you have to state something over a million times not a problem. It is also the right of the creater to choose to make a error it just might work out in the end due to some unseen effect from the placement. Or the creator has not had time to do your feedback yet and fixed something else up. Shoving them might cause them to walk away not good for anyone.

Something is only crap if you cannot see the good stuff. Nice icons bad UI ok we can use the icons. Person does something strange it might just work.

My most important rule is Number of Key/Mouse Presses and moves to complete most required goals and Number of Key/Mouse presses and moves required to fix errors. These are constant and predictable nothing much screws with them. More often than not lower the better. Annoying this even has a exception sometimes extra clicks are required for explainations so people don't stuff things up more often recovered due to lower error rate in the interface.

Note the MadRat search section. Search is a very commonly used function. One of the most used functions Embeding in the menu could improve speed alot. It would have to get to trail to see what effect if any it was going to have.

You have to learn to sit back watch let people make mistakes and learn.

Crappish
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Post by Crappish » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:46 pm

Now you are just being confusing. I simply stated that those two (Nielsen, Tognazzini) could good starting point with the design guidelines, as they are generally recognized as leading designers. Specially Nielsen. What is your point?

Theories (like Fitt's) don't work everywhere or everytime. Well, whpoodie doo. So obvious it makes me feel like screaming. Seems like arguing for the sake of argument for me.
Also you have proved self to be a bottom up programmer Microsoft Style. Some programmers are top down some GTK/QT programmers. Both methord are vaild. Ie you start with the flash and sort out how it will fit. Most common for art creators for some reason not the normal GUI creators.
I fail to see the point in this...


Next step. Philosophy? People have right to do mistakes. Hell yes but an adult should be able to tell the difference between listening the advice and peering to the gasoline canister themselves.

Like I said, I'm getting the feeling that you are arguing for the sake of argument or you just want to win. I don't know. As this argument is harsly productive in any way so I wish not to continue it anymore.
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

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Post by MadRat » Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:46 pm

oiaohm made alot of sense to me. Perhaps you're too quick to judge what people have said, Crappish. You kind of remind me how stubborn I was in my college years.
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MadRat
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Post by MadRat » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:50 am

I'm curious what you people that are learned in GUI design think of the new Linux distro called Symphony and how its GUI works. It is definitely not using your typical start buttons with which users of Windows or MAC have become accustomed.

CLICK ON THE IMAGE BELOW TO SEE MORE SCREENSHOTS OF SYMPHONY OS: Image
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oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:42 pm

FVWM is the Windows Manager behind that MadRat.

The thinks that Windows Manager can do is just scarry. I was using that Windows Manager in 1995 yes it has more features now. But still its just scarry.

http://www.symphonyos.com/laws.html Rules of a interface.

What I like. Is a developer who publishes there rules then builds a desktop from them. Note the developer was smart he did not do Multi desktops like most linux graphical interfaces so fitt's works. Could still break on multi screens. Have to publish a idea to fix problem not able to move to another desktop threw conners. Speeds up targeting if mouse pointer cannnot get away from the target. Ie shove mouse into conner and get auto aligned on target. Less Human targeting ie faster.

Ok Next Question how much flex should the reactos interface have for themes to recreate it.

Crappish It sad to say you need a few more years I guess to see that their is more than one way to get to a goal. Sad to say its is normal for Microsoft Style programmers not to understand top down development. Also its also true that Microsoft Style Programmers normally depend on laws and rules to build interfaces. Top Down programmers might end up with lets say a big red off button with the interface shaped around it. The button wastes space but it is a memory to the user of the program. Yes it breaks the rules completely wastes space but can be perfectly usable(most important question more often than not).

Also it's perfectly normal for Top Down programmers to stuff things up and leave them stuffed up if they don't think that section is important to fix now.

Philosophy of course. It is actually religion. Guess what religion says you have the right to stuff up if you choose.

People should not have to put up with personal attacks or unrequired orders. Simple to tell the difference between a order and advice. A person giving advice does not get upset if person decided to not take the advice and do it anyhow.

You sometimes have to use order to save someone life. Interface creation is not life or death. So no need to care if your advice/orders are taken or not. Note people giving Negitive Advice normally cannot tell the difference between advice and ordering someone to do something.

Sometimes I just have to pray that some people are given more understanding of how to talk to each other without verbally or in writing trying to beat the other person head in.

Funny part Crappish you are just like me before I found religion a complete lack of understand of different ways. Each to their own path sooner or latter you will see the errors in your way. Most likely the reason you upset me so much I saw my old faults in you. Funny how the world works just when I thought I was over it I run into my mirror image of my old self.

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Post by mf » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:27 pm

Good thing I can just sit back and watch while everyone is out to change the world and cause a revolution. The problem with all this idealisticness is practicality. This 'Mezzo desktop' isn't practical. It is easy to use, I admit. But you're trading practicality for an easy learning curve. Windows XP and MacOS X already have an easy enough learning curve. If the antisocial family a couple blocks down the road can use WinXP, then you don't need anything easier.
The problems with the current OS offerings aren't remotely interface related.
WinXP: stability, security, and being the thing that everybody uses.
MacOSX: price, platform availability, and being the thing that nobody uses.
Linux and everything else: technical OSes are for technical people-- look at MacOS if you want to find out how to change a technical OS into an inviting one.

About "the thing that everybody uses": if you think malware and spyware manifests itself almost exclusively for Windows because Windows is in any way inferior, you are hugely mistaken. Terrorists flew into the WTC and not into grandma's outhouse, because the latter would have no result apart from a distressed grandma. Malware and spyware is made for Windows because making viruses for MacOS would only result in distressed hippies.
About price: Macs are expensive. Too expensive. If a Mac mini, those things you can do absolutely nothing with if you don't even buy a monitor or keyboard/mouse with it, costs $500, you are not reaching your audience.
About "the thing that nobody uses": You can't do much more than write a letter or browse the internet on a Mac. You can draw some stuff in an overexpensive Photoshop, you can watch some stuttery movies in QuickTime player, and you can compose said stuttery movies in Final Cut, or whatever it's called. Period. Third-party apps? Rare. Platform support? Next to nil. Result: not practical.

Apart from all this, most contemporary OSes are pretty much at the peak of usability and practicality. They're scalable between using 1 app at a time or using 30, and even though WinXP doesn't really like it stability-wise (hello 512 concurrent threads limit), there is nothing hampering your productivity. When I look at Mezzo Desktop, I see a very easy to use and intuitive interface where most things work like expected, but I won't be found dead running more than 10 apps on it. I won't want to use it for longer than a 2 hour stretch anyway (hey, this is supposed to be a good thing, right? I mean, RSI and such...), and will be fighting a constant battle with its limitations and imposed restrictions. And grandma? She just learned to work with MacOSX, and really doesn't feel like learning some silly new thing, because even though the machine cost a hefty bit, it just *works!*
It compiles, let's ship it!

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Post by oiaohm » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:41 am

I was looking at Mezzo Desktop more for the Windows Media Centre section where it has to be simple.
Malware and spyware is made for Windows because making viruses for MacOS would only result in distressed hippies.
Hmm viruses to appear for Linux. The difference is the number of versions of the same virus. Windows is at least 10.

Linux virus proventions is removing of the security flaws that allow the virus to exist. So in 6 months time the virus dies completely out on linux. You would be lucky if a Windows virus dies out inside 2 years due to new versions created to avoid virus scanners but using the same flaw.

Mac minis run Gimp well and the Apple open source clone. Simple to expand the hardware option. Mac minis loss it for me.

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