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Do you like it?

YES, I really like it
66
81%
it's not much better than the old one
12
15%
NO, I don't like it at all
3
4%
 
Total votes: 81

Crappish
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Post by Crappish » Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:26 am

oiaohm wrote:Crappish It sad to say you need a few more years I guess to see that their is more than one way to get to a goal. Sad to say its is normal for Microsoft Style programmers not to understand top down development. Also its also true that Microsoft Style Programmers normally depend on laws and rules to build interfaces. Top Down programmers might end up with lets say a big red off button with the interface shaped around it. The button wastes space but it is a memory to the user of the program. Yes it breaks the rules completely wastes space but can be perfectly usable(most important question more often than not).

Also it's perfectly normal for Top Down programmers to stuff things up and leave them stuffed up if they don't think that section is important to fix now.
It saddens me to see that you are just making strange assumptations to get the better of me. Maybe you just need few more years to grow...


oiaohm wrote:Sometimes I just have to pray that some people are given more understanding of how to talk to each other without verbally or in writing trying to beat the other person head in.

Funny part Crappish you are just like me before I found religion a complete lack of understand of different ways. Each to their own path sooner or latter you will see the errors in your way. Most likely the reason you upset me so much I saw my old faults in you. Funny how the world works just when I thought I was over it I run into my mirror image of my old self.
Sometimes I pray.. no wait, I don't. I just hope that you just get it some day.
But since this thread has turned to you making strange facts about me and praising yourself how perfect you are.. well, then there is no reason to go on, is there? It's funny that I was right after all, only reason you keep going is that you just want to win.
Well, fine. You are the better person. You win. Ok?

(Yes, it's a low blow but I'm tired of this pointless "argument")
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:32 am

Crappish I am more annoyed with myself for letting you upset me with your actions and not realizing that I was seeing my old self in you. Ie I am not perfect not better than you either.

I here by give apologies to every one in this thread of return of the part return of my old self letting anger blind me

This is why I wrote this "Funny how the world works just when I thought I was over it I run into my mirror image of my old self." Ie I have repeated my old mistake if I was perfect I would not have stuffed up. O well if you have not got it you will just have to learn it the hard way like I did.

Winning is not important. The important part is that you see the mistakes in your actions. If I have mistakes in my actions I except them and are willing to see them. Not once did you see all you did is try to pick weak points in me. Just what I would have done in the past.

The impossible card. Normally the first card they/person have asked me to do something that is impossible so I can keep on doing the same mistake.
The blind card. I will not see your point card or the no way to achive my ends so I will trying not seeing the point so that the person weakens.
The assumptions card. They have be basing the mistake they see in me on assumptions. Even if they have made assumption its is normally based on some of your actions or appearence since I cannot see you its based on something you said.
The mirror card. Where you try mirror a comment back against the person who said it.
The resign card. I wall walk way and keep on doing the same thing by telling the person that they have won without excepting my flaws.

Crappish you are first who played three cards in one section nice work. At least you did not try playing the seventh card the person is a idiot card. So I have lost not won. Resigning without understanding and admiting the flaws means I have lost. Yes you are better at putting up a fight to avoiding the issue than me. Final flaw some people logic that Winning is important. Excepting of the flaws people see in you and trying to to correct them is more important.

Note I have only list 6 out of the 7 cards. Lets see if sixth gets played or not.

Everyone please remember the cards they are a good hint that a person is not willing to except change in their actions. And if you are doing them have a good look at self because you might be being closed minded when you should not be.

I should have picked this up in the first 2 posts. Sorry everyone I am trained better than this.

Lets get back to important parts of this thread.
Now I want something from you. How much should a theme be able to change the interface of the Os. Should it be able to complete reshape the interface or not. Should a theme be able to reform the Start menu task bar layout or not.

Something that needs to be worked out.

MadRat
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Post by MadRat » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:36 am

I wonder if the people that design the GUI rules are aware of the way the mind is wired in relationship to eye position. By moving the eyes to different positions then researchers have shown real patterns of though evolve depending on the position. When in deep thought my eyes tend to stare upwards. When listening to someone explain a problem my eyes habitually wander top right. I just have not seen any mention of this behavior used in the nuances of GUI design.
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bshellenberg
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Post by bshellenberg » Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:33 am

Jesus guys, who gives a shit? Make it nice and make it work.

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:44 am

Not normally in rules due to the facts like fitt's that is ment for real world not GUI ie production lines most miss the different factors that effect the desktop user.

Higher the ammount of though required at the time to operate alters the user set. Note Gnome's from linux default setup has the menu on the top left(yes they as close but not right).

Most people don't relize this when really deep in though you cannot see for a max of a secound or 2. Reason why a person can scare the heck out of you while you are thinking hard.

Reason why part of any gui developerment is user testing under real conditions. It is one of the out lying effects. If you are using a low amount of thought your eyes will drift to the bottom of the screen. Really simple to use OS might gain nothing from the eye effect. Not enought thought requirement to get the effect.

Humans are downright complex. Allowing for them is harder than real world testing. Yes some developers tryed to take this into effect and some stuffed up when handling the research infomation.

Most important of all GUI rules is don't have anything flashing at high freq ie 15 plus times per secound or you could end up with a lot of sick humans. Most documented was the one in Pokemon series in japan. Lot of sick children due to fits.

Even the colours of the GUI has effects on humans. Blue keeps humans awake. Ie the colour pep pill.

Simpler to create what you think is good. Then double check that you have not done anything really bad that will harm humans. Because you will risk drive your self around the bend taking all the factor of humans into account. Ie I cannot use that colour because it will put the user to self and I cannot use this colour because users will have a short fuse and I cannot use this colour because human will be sleep deprived.

All interfaces do something bad to humans.

Floyd
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Location: The frozen part of the USA

Post by Floyd » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:12 am

http://www.tpu.fi/~a5mtikka/varasto/gui ... t_menu.jpg

The start menu looks utterly familiar. OMG, its the traditional single panel start menu!! How clever! Sure its got more horizontal lines in it and smaller icons than the original, which is worth a bonus for sure. To think nobody had thought of those changes before you, utterly flipping amazing.
but i like how it has the exploding "my computer" and 'recent searches'. i think it's a simple and useful expounding of the basic start menu. which i think ROS should have (a simple start menu, that is).
http://www.tpu.fi/~a5mtikka/varasto/gui ... search.jpg

It's comical that you included the little looking glass next to the search bar.
the looking glass is consistant both with XP and vista styling conventions. and the way he did it is a simple extension of an already familiar start menu. vista is not some end-all be-all, vista is essentially playing catch up with Mac OSX.
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Crappish
Posts: 92
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Location: Tampere, Finland

Post by Crappish » Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:57 pm

oiaohm wrote:Lets get back to important parts of this thread.
So it's over. Good.
oiaohm wrote:I just have not seen any mention of this behavior used in the nuances of GUI design.
That's mainly because people aren't simple enough to follow such rules. I.e. myself usually look down when I'm thinking, I'm either illustrating something, just staring or in some cases eyes shut.
oiaohm wrote:Even the colours of the GUI has effects on humans. Blue keeps humans awake. Ie the colour pep pill.
Do you have facts to back this up? It's just that blue is the color that our eyes have most difficulties to detect hence it's kinda transparent to human eye, specially if not in focus. Whereas human eye has highest sensitivity for red and orange so they require more attention; one could think they are the ones to keeping people awake.
Also yellow, red and orange have higest valour-values so they are reflecting more light (energy) to the viewer. Of course this works whole differently in computer screen.
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

Floyd
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Post by Floyd » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:36 am

oiaohm wrote:Even the colours of the GUI has effects on humans. Blue keeps humans awake. Ie the colour pep pill.
Do you have facts to back this up? It's just that blue is the color that our eyes have most difficulties to detect hence it's kinda transparent to human eye,
Well color psychology is a pretty nebulous field right but colors do affect mood. Green is supposed to mean "safe" and be an inducer for hunger. Red means "blood" or "danger". Yellow has been found to be relaxing but over time, an incitement to anger. Pink is very soothing. Green is supposedly the easiest color for the human eye to see and distinguish as well. What blue means, I'm not sure; but color psychology is a real field with on-going studies.

Also, it's important to note that some colors can vary in meaning by culture (green means safe), where others are more universal (red is danger/blood).

Here is quick rundown on colors and what they (generally) mean:
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
also read http://psychology.about.com/library/wee ... 31501a.htm
pax mei amici amorque et Iesus sacret omnia

Crappish
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:26 pm
Location: Tampere, Finland

Post by Crappish » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:34 am

Floyd wrote:Well color psychology is a pretty nebulous field right but colors do affect mood. Green is supposed to mean "safe" and be an inducer for hunger. Red means "blood" or "danger". Yellow has been found to be relaxing but over time, an incitement to anger. Pink is very soothing. Green is supposedly the easiest color for the human eye to see and distinguish as well. What blue means, I'm not sure; but color psychology is a real field with on-going studies.

Also, it's important to note that some colors can vary in meaning by culture (green means safe), where others are more universal (red is danger/blood).

Here is quick rundown on colors and what they (generally) mean:
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
also read http://psychology.about.com/library/wee ... 31501a.htm
Agreed, color psychology, specially if the effects are specified as far as hunger or such, is practically neverending swamp. As the viewer comments suggest in about.com.

Though, I still argue that red and orange are the easiest for human eye to distinguish. Simply because of structure of the human eye; most red sensitive cells.
Can't provoke anyone? Why bother posting?

oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:53 am

Crappish this is a bit of a complex read.
http://www.darksky.org/links/pauleylhh.pdf

Basic means we evolved with red and yellow light at night not blue light. There is a hidden section(a section we don't use of seeing) of the eye that can detect blue that resets our clock so we can sleep we need the clock in the end cycle. Reason why blind people without any eyes have extreame trouble sleeping at the right times. Because our body clock needs almost dayly resets to keep it on time or we drift out very quicky.

Blue places it in the start cycle when you wake up. yep cannot sleep simplely after seeing it.

Constant exposer to partical colors can have different effect.

Red and Yellow that you lean towards are the natrual night colours so not effecting the clock.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... on.html#c1

Blue cells are the most sensitive color receptor and we have less of them.
Most sensitive cells are the ones we use at night the ones that only can see gray.

We have a lot of red senors but they are not really that effective they are the first sections of the eye entering a dark area to fail ie cannot see low shades to well blue is next normal due to lack of numbers then green then you see black and white. One of the simplest test blue can be last if the blue object is placed in the right place to eyes ie placement is required broad area tests give it to green. Get youself 3 cards one Red one Green and one Blue and a room that you can control the light in and one verry truefull test subject.

The simplest colors for humans to see use graphic above better the overlap simpler we see the color. Between Green and Yellow. You are very close with orange. Because then the eyes are using 64% plus 32% ie 96% of the space on the back of the eye for colour processing.

Psychology effects are alot harder to detect than blood work changes due to light exposer.

Large explosers to Blue light can have many long term bad effects. Including cancer due to body not sleeping correctly. Lots of lights put out blue light these days. The very bad things can happen. One of the reasons why we have more people with sleep problems these days. This study up the top is not the only study on the topic. Most were done in attempt to find what shift workers needed and so companys did not have to keep on replacing shift workers due to illness.

Other colours can have other effects.

The reason of the least ammout of blue sensors might be so the clock reset feature can work.

Floyd
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Post by Floyd » Fri Nov 04, 2005 4:06 am

Crappish wrote: Though, I still argue that red and orange are the easiest for human eye to distinguish. Simply because of structure of the human eye; most red sensitive cells.
Well the reason i mention green is because i remember when i was taking my psych classes we discussed how the military actually funded a study and the study found that while other colors were highly visible, green is the most visible for most people. Which is possibly why night vision is green tinted (not really sure but that's my guess).
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MadRat
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Post by MadRat » Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:13 am

IIRC then green has more distinguished levels of contrast, it isn't necessarily easier to see in general. It would of been just as easy to use black and any other color, but the number of shades of green that can be detected is higher than what is normally detected in other colors.
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oiaohm
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Post by oiaohm » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:47 am

Always try in gray scale. I forgot that note.

If you cannot see anything in gray scale colour blind people might not be able to see anything. We are more sentive in gray range than any other. I have never come across any documentation of anyone being blind only in that section of the eye but people can be blind only in either the Blue Green or Red sections. Most likely not a problem since the three sections of colour most likely make up for it.

mf
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Post by mf » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:24 pm

oiaohm wrote:Always try in gray scale. I forgot that note.
We are more sentive in gray range than any other.
Wrong. As Floyd says, green being in the middle of the spectrum has the longest wavelength and thus we can distinguish more shades. Green is the brightest color in 50% luminance (pure green), and red is the brightest color in lower luminance (<50%). Blue relatively is the darkest color in the entire luminance range. Grey, as you can guess, is somewhere in between, and less distinguished in luminance than green and red. So *IF* you can see colors, they definitely have an advantage over greyscale. The reason for this is because our eyes have rods for luminance and cones for colors. With greyscale, only our (note: more sensitive) rods are activated. With color, *both* the rods and cones get activated, thus you have about 1,5 times the fidelity as you would normally have. Following from this reasoning it is advisable to have adjacent colors that should be easily distinguishable from eachother have differing brightness.

Trivia about colors for those who have heard about colorspaces:
The world works in the additive light spectrum: RGB
Our eyes work in luminance/chrominance: YUV
Our brain converts the info from our eyes in hues and tints: HSL
Waterpaint works in semi-subtractive chemical pigment mixing: RYB
Printed media works in subtractive ink: CMYK
...And digital camera CCDs capture about 25% more colors than we can see (near-infrared).
;)
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MadRat
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Post by MadRat » Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:08 pm

I'm always forgetting, isn't a white 'light source' none of the colors of light and white 'color' is all of the colors at once?
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