Greek translation

Discuss translation of both ReactOS and the website here.

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Webunny
Posts: 1201
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:03 am

crackez wrote:
Webunny wrote:It's been almost half a year by now... and it's still not rectified.

I know it's all 'too few resources' and all that, but this is getting ridiculous. It can't be it takes this long just to make some links/buttons under navigation. All this 'too much permission' stuff doesn't really cut it; it's just the (Dutch) navigation-menu that should be made to work. All the rest can be looked at later. There is no reason why people wanting to read the site in Dutch should have to wait doing that for months on end, just because there is something wrong with the permission-settings that I got.

Revoke the permissions, then. Just make the navigation buttons work. Analyse it afterwards.
Why don't they use an open source website system with translation features? ..I mean there are stuff out there, there's no point in re-inventing the wheel
You mean auto-translate functions? To be honest: those suck. They can't get the grammar right, nor can they translate according to context. Or do you mean a new CMS system?

Anyway, the real problem now isn't the translation (though this drupal system sucks at it), but the navigation. Even whatever translation-system they would go for, if you don't make it so that afterwards you can also browse through that translated site, you're nothing with it.

It's true: they should move to another system, or at least get better modules for this one. But let's face it; if we're going to wait for that, it's going to be another 5 years. I really don't feel like waiting for that. What there needs to be done in the short run is very simple: either tell me how to create those buttons so I can do it myself, or, since that seem too difficult and complex with the 'permissions', somebody else makes it. Like, you know... the one who manages the system?? I doubt that's z98 or Vic, so I don't blame them, but really *SOMEONE* must know how to do it, right? I mean, they did it with the French and German site.

So I'll re-ask my question: how/who did those guys get their translated buttons, then? I've asked this several times by now, but I don't seem to get a simple answer to that (well, actually I get none at all to that). HOW and WHO on the French and German translation made it? If the how is to difficult to spend a post on, than at least point me to someone who made those buttons there, and I'll ask him myself, so no-one else has to spend any valuable time on it...

I repeat:

It's quite simple: SOMEONE there must have made the navigationbuttons. If the CMS-people are too short-handed and have too few resources and are busy as hell...they can just give me the name of the person(s) who did it on the French and German translated sites. And I'll contact them further for info then.

I really didn't want to come of as pouting or something, but really, I am getting frustrated. I made the effort of translating the site more then 6 months ago. And the site is STILL not navigationable (aka, one is stuck with the mainpage and can't browse), which effectively makes the whole site worthless. It's just unfathomable that something which takes less than half an hour for a competent IT-person, here takes *more than half a year*!! No matter how busy one is, one isn't going to tell me no-one could muster a half hour during more then 6 months! Unless one is not willing to spend or have even the barest minimum of interest in it and can't be bothered in the slightest. But if so, one should have told so BEFORE I made the effort of translating the site.

I REALLY don't think one can say I've been impatient about it or not understanding about the situation. More than 6 months! SIX MONTHS! For a few buttons!

oldman
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Re: Greek translation

Post by oldman » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:32 pm

Webunny » 23 Jul 2014 22:03
I really didn't want to come of as pouting or something, but really, I am getting frustrated. I made the effort of translating the site more then 6 months ago. And the site is STILL not navigationable (aka, one is stuck with the mainpage and can't browse), which effectively makes the whole site worthless.
Why don't you create an issue in Jira? You can change Project to ReactOS Online Service, then make your complaint in the Description box!
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Webunny
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:57 pm

oldman wrote:
Webunny » 23 Jul 2014 22:03
I really didn't want to come of as pouting or something, but really, I am getting frustrated. I made the effort of translating the site more then 6 months ago. And the site is STILL not navigationable (aka, one is stuck with the mainpage and can't browse), which effectively makes the whole site worthless.
Why don't you create an issue in Jira? You can change Project to ReactOS Online Service, then make your complaint in the Description box!
Is there a point? I've had contact with z98, Vic and others on the forum and in pm: they are well aware of the problem. JIRA is the same as so many other things: it's all good and well to mention it and make aware of an issue, but in the end, it still needs someone to work on it (which is the actual problem here).

justincase
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:23 pm

Perhaps the point is that there is more incentive to close a JIRA issue than there is to respond to something posted on the forums, or perhaps that someone else who is possibly more likely to do it might see it, or ... I'm sure you can come up with other reasons too if you think about it.

Note: I'm guilty (of not reporting everything on JIRA that perhaps I should) too, but the point is that things are more likely to get done if they're on JIRA or they get brought up on IRC.
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

oldman
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Re: Greek translation

Post by oldman » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:28 pm

Webunny wrote: Is there a point? I've had contact with z98, Vic and others on the forum and in pm: they are well aware of the problem. JIRA is the same as so many other things: it's all good and well to mention it and make aware of an issue, but in the end, it still needs someone to work on it (which is the actual problem here).
Do Z98 or vimarcal work on the website infrastructure? The answer I say is no, but if you make a Jira issue, has I have suggested, then the people who do work on the website infrastructure, will see it and hopefully take action to fix the problem.
Please keep the Windows classic (9x/2000) look and feel.
The layman's guides to - debugging - bug reporting - compiling - with some complementary scripts.
They may help you with a problem, so do have a look at them.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:33 pm

oldman wrote:
Webunny wrote: Is there a point? I've had contact with z98, Vic and others on the forum and in pm: they are well aware of the problem. JIRA is the same as so many other things: it's all good and well to mention it and make aware of an issue, but in the end, it still needs someone to work on it (which is the actual problem here).
Do Z98 or vimarcal work on the website infrastructure? The answer I say is no, but if you make a Jira issue, has I have suggested, then the people who do work on the website infrastructure, will see it and hopefully take action to fix the problem.
No (at least they don't have full say on it on THIS website), but they contacted the ones who do the website infrastructure, so it should be the same.

crackez
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:17 am

Re: Greek translation

Post by crackez » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:57 pm

Webunny wrote:
crackez wrote:
Webunny wrote:It's been almost half a year by now... and it's still not rectified.

I know it's all 'too few resources' and all that, but this is getting ridiculous. It can't be it takes this long just to make some links/buttons under navigation. All this 'too much permission' stuff doesn't really cut it; it's just the (Dutch) navigation-menu that should be made to work. All the rest can be looked at later. There is no reason why people wanting to read the site in Dutch should have to wait doing that for months on end, just because there is something wrong with the permission-settings that I got.

Revoke the permissions, then. Just make the navigation buttons work. Analyse it afterwards.
Why don't they use an open source website system with translation features? ..I mean there are stuff out there, there's no point in re-inventing the wheel
You mean auto-translate functions? To be honest: those suck. They can't get the grammar right, nor can they translate according to context. Or do you mean a new CMS system?

Anyway, the real problem now isn't the translation (though this drupal system sucks at it), but the navigation. Even whatever translation-system they would go for, if you don't make it so that afterwards you can also browse through that translated site, you're nothing with it.

It's true: they should move to another system, or at least get better modules for this one. But let's face it; if we're going to wait for that, it's going to be another 5 years. I really don't feel like waiting for that. What there needs to be done in the short run is very simple: either tell me how to create those buttons so I can do it myself, or, since that seem too difficult and complex with the 'permissions', somebody else makes it. Like, you know... the one who manages the system?? I doubt that's z98 or Vic, so I don't blame them, but really *SOMEONE* must know how to do it, right? I mean, they did it with the French and German site.

So I'll re-ask my question: how/who did those guys get their translated buttons, then? I've asked this several times by now, but I don't seem to get a simple answer to that (well, actually I get none at all to that). HOW and WHO on the French and German translation made it? If the how is to difficult to spend a post on, than at least point me to someone who made those buttons there, and I'll ask him myself, so no-one else has to spend any valuable time on it...

I repeat:

It's quite simple: SOMEONE there must have made the navigationbuttons. If the CMS-people are too short-handed and have too few resources and are busy as hell...they can just give me the name of the person(s) who did it on the French and German translated sites. And I'll contact them further for info then.

I really didn't want to come of as pouting or something, but really, I am getting frustrated. I made the effort of translating the site more then 6 months ago. And the site is STILL not navigationable (aka, one is stuck with the mainpage and can't browse), which effectively makes the whole site worthless. It's just unfathomable that something which takes less than half an hour for a competent IT-person, here takes *more than half a year*!! No matter how busy one is, one isn't going to tell me no-one could muster a half hour during more then 6 months! Unless one is not willing to spend or have even the barest minimum of interest in it and can't be bothered in the slightest. But if so, one should have told so BEFORE I made the effort of translating the site.

I REALLY don't think one can say I've been impatient about it or not understanding about the situation. More than 6 months! SIX MONTHS! For a few buttons!
Always talking about manual translation - auto translation do suck. I mean a system which we can actually start translating. I have the knowledge, I have the experience but we don't have the system to do it? ..really? :lol:

It's like getting ReactOS to Gold version but doesn't have a way to install any windows-driver to the os :o

Z98
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Z98 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:33 pm

crackez, if you want to do the Greek translations, PM me. I'm going to put you in contact with our nominal Greek language maintainer.

Webunny
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:44 pm

Z98 wrote:crackez, if you want to do the Greek translations, PM me. I'm going to put you in contact with our nominal Greek language maintainer.
Did the problems with the navigation-buttons got resolved, then?

crackez
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:17 am

Re: Greek translation

Post by crackez » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:03 pm

WOW after some years finally we get in line (I'll be impressed if it'll work)

Webunny
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:19 pm

crackez wrote:WOW after some years finally we get in line (I'll be impressed if it'll work)
Well, there is a minimum wait of 6 months. ;-)

It's still not quite 100%, but at least my translation can be browsed by now in the navigation-menu. The buttons there don't really match the ones on the english site, but I note many other translation don't match neither; it's like the buttons are placed in random order. Dunno what the deal is with that. Apart that, only the lil flag is missing. And will be for another 6 months, I'm sure.

But ah well, it's 'navigationable' now, at least.


It's clear the system for translating/adding stuff is complete rubbish, though. Certainly in the sense of user-friendliness.

crackez
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:17 am

Re: Greek translation

Post by crackez » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:59 am

Webunny wrote:
crackez wrote:WOW after some years finally we get in line (I'll be impressed if it'll work)
Well, there is a minimum wait of 6 months. ;-)

It's still not quite 100%, but at least my translation can be browsed by now in the navigation-menu. The buttons there don't really match the ones on the english site, but I note many other translation don't match neither; it's like the buttons are placed in random order. Dunno what the deal is with that. Apart that, only the lil flag is missing. And will be for another 6 months, I'm sure.

But ah well, it's 'navigationable' now, at least.


It's clear the system for translating/adding stuff is complete rubbish, though. Certainly in the sense of user-friendliness.
Hope at least the OS itself be better than this(in it's final form, when this happen if it happen :D)

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:43 pm

crackez wrote:
Webunny wrote:
crackez wrote:WOW after some years finally we get in line (I'll be impressed if it'll work)
Well, there is a minimum wait of 6 months. ;-)

It's still not quite 100%, but at least my translation can be browsed by now in the navigation-menu. The buttons there don't really match the ones on the english site, but I note many other translation don't match neither; it's like the buttons are placed in random order. Dunno what the deal is with that. Apart that, only the lil flag is missing. And will be for another 6 months, I'm sure.

But ah well, it's 'navigationable' now, at least.


It's clear the system for translating/adding stuff is complete rubbish, though. Certainly in the sense of user-friendliness.
Hope at least the OS itself be better than this(in it's final form, when this happen if it happen :D)

I can't comment on the coding side of things, since I have not enough experience with that on itself. But I do know how organisations work (or ought to work), including non-profits, and I do know how websites work (or ought to work), and in those domains ROS isn't doing all to well, I must say. Again: I'm saying this in an objective, neutral stance, I'm not attacking anyone in particular. (It's annoying I have to explicitly mention this every time, or it's highly likely I get a post of someone feeling personally(?) offended).

Even communication is not done too well. Contrary to what is sometimes claimed, I tried to help out here and there, and tried to involve the community. But apart from the things I could and have done myself - on myself, completely - none came of it. Things like organising a (sub)voting for the push your app; well, no help was needed, it was my vote, so I could do with it as I pleased. Idem with the wikipages of the ROS Rig and the games testing: since only my own work was needed, it got done (which doesn't mean I don't appreciate or diminish the effort of other posters in it, because the help there is welcomed!). Point is, in the cases where you don't really need help or permission from the devs/PR, small (non-coding) projects are easily done.

But when you DO need help or permission from the 'higher ups', because otherwise the project stands still...well, it stands still. It takes a half year to change some buttons, for instance. The translation of the whole site was done by me in 3 weeks, and it was not like I was really pushing myself. But adding a few buttons could not be done by me, and took over 6 months. I made and remade a new newsletter, waited patiently for another 6 months, to then hear - after I ask about it once again - that it's scrapped ('but we like the idea'). And yes, the newsletter has been completely removed now, which is totally the opposite of what was the agreed upon intention. Worse, if I hadn't asked again, I wouldn't even have been notified my work was for naught. I also made a wallpapercontest; I asked in front if it had any use there too (no-one wants to be on an fools' errand, after all). I got permission, and after I made it, also in a reasonable time, and put it on JIRA...nothing anymore. Well, one question, to which I responded and asked if I should send high res pictures of which pictures, but I never hear anything of it anymore. No feedback at all. And it's not like it would take more than 2 minutes to write a pm of the devs/PR to send over the pictures, or a wetransfer link to them, or something. As said, communication and communtiy participation are obviously not the strong points of ROS/PR. And yes, they are busy and also have other r/l, but so do I. If they are so busy they can't spare half an hour in 6 months, they should delegate more, and make it so people CAN do stuff more on themselves. If I had the opportunity, the wallpapers, new newsletter, navigationbuttons etc. would long since have been there. but the real issue is diminishing the top-down attitude in favour of a bottom-up attitude, and give people more leeway in doing things themselves. Why is there any need for PR to set some buttons, for instance, if I already have proven myself by translating the whole site? If it's technical THAT difficult, why did one choose such a system, and why not change it? In fact, wasn't the whole point of the change to another site exactly to improve upon it? I'm pretty sure that, if the wikipages and voting contest somehow had to need an effort or permission from PR, it still wouldn't have been there neither. The thing to note, thus, is that if it's not about coding, it's perfectly possible to let people do more on themselves. It will certainly happen more rapidly, at least for those area's that individuals are interested in doing. I suggest, thus, a far more decentralised approach for such things. This goes against the centralised approach which is ingrained into ROS currently, I know. And mind you: there is nothing inherently wrong with a centralised approach, but then you have to make sure you have enough capable people doing all the the things that need to be done to maintain a fluently working site with good communication to your fanbase, as if it were a business dealing with their customers (fanbase). But this is not the case, and being short-handed is the nr.1 complaint for not being able to do so. Well, ok. But then go for the more decentralised approach, if you can't manage it well centrally.

As things are dealt with now, even for the point of mere communicating, it's wholly inadequate. The latest example is the bookkeeping-thingy I already pointed out in another thread. After much, much asking for, we did get some sort of explanation, mingled in with posts that said 'it isn't your business' (as if that were relevant from a stance of a moral obligation of a non-profit to show it's backers where their money went to. I did not ask it just to please me personally,; after all). I then asked whether it wouldn't be better if all the past fiscal years would be bundled together and conveniently placed on on page. To which was answered rather positively, but with the caveat that it would take time to make such a compilation, and that certain stuff still had to be translated, and one was very busy, and what not. Well, ok, I then offered to do so myself, even with the translation. One would think, if all the previous were the problem, and somebody does the work for you, one would be glad and say; ok, then, go ahead. But no such communication was received. In fact, no communication was received at all. and yes, I did pm the treasurer for it, and yes he DID read it. So why did I got no response at all? Either 'go ahead' or 'nope, we'll (won't) do it ourselves' - both are fine with me. But receiving no communication at all is extremely annoying. It takes 1 minute to respond to an offer of help. Don't tell me one needs 6 months for that as well. In another thread, another poster makes allusion to many fans getting frustrated. Well, this is an example for getting extremely frustrated. And because I otherwise get the response I 'seem to think ROS must haste themselves to please you' I often wait a long, long time before saying something about it (or else I'm 'pushy'). Here too, I waited for, what, a week or two by now to get any response? But let's be realistic here; it does NOT take that long to respond after you read something, EVEN if you're busy. And I agree: it's a pity I always have to complain about that (I'm sure some devs/PR are saying 'ah, webunny is whining again', but there would be no need to complain about it, if things worked as one reasonably might expect from an organisation and the active members in it) so often. But let's face it: if I don't get any response after 2-3 weeks, I will not get one after 6 months or a year neither - or only to hear the idea is 'liked' but for the rest nothing.

That said, all this is organisational in nature, and deals with communication and hierarchic-structural or other problems with(in) ROS (foundation), it has nothing to do with the quality of the code. In that respect, I have to say the OS is rather good and functional, considering it being alpha. I've been testing it on RH (a niche thusfar), and have no complaints (expectations have to be realistic for an alpha-realease, of course). There has also been considerable improvements made, since 0.3.15. With a new explorer, usb fully working and (hopefully) some extra widely used drivers auto-installed, I think the 0.4 will be a considerable improvement as well. So rest assured in regard to the OS. There is no need to be negative if it's not needed or warranted, and as far as the coding goes, imho there is little to be critical of, seen the complexity of coding a complete OS from scratch and the fact it's alpha.

hto
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Post by hto » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:27 am

+1

A long time ago, somebody on the Chinese forum said that there is not necessarily lack of people who want to help, but a lack of an organizer.

Of course, it is not to blame somebody personally, but just to comment on this ridiculous / sad state of things…

Z98
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Z98 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:43 am

Seeing as attempting to indirectly state the following have completely failed.

1) As the project's manpower is limited, the only times when something the community participates in has any chance of being closely monitored and curated by the project's personnel are those that the project itself proposes it to the community. Anything that the community itself proposes faces the issue of, if the project had the manpower to deal with it, we probably would have already proposed it to the community at large. As such the default assumed position if there is no response should be that the project cannot take it on or does not need.

2) If the project does decide to accommodate a request or proposal, then the speed at which the proposal is acted upon is dependent on when manpower is available. If something takes six months to do, it is because other things were of greater priority to the project, regardless of the personal priority of whoever made the original proposal.

3) Offering yourself to perform work has little meaning unless the work in question is something the project would consider delegating. If the work is not something the project would consider delegating, volunteering for it has no effect on how quickly it can be done. Whether to delegate or not is dependent on the degree of trust that the project holds for a volunteer and the sensitivity of what the work entails. Even in cases where the task is mundane however, if there is not a sufficient degree of trust then the task will not be delegated.

4) Offering yourself to perform work does not mean the project is spared having to do work. The majority of the time anything proposed requires action on the project's part. If the required time is not available, then the offer will be declined. While you may regard this as the project foregoing freely provided results, we regard it as not taking on additional work for something that we may not yet need.

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