Greek translation

Discuss translation of both ReactOS and the website here.

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hto
Developer
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Post by hto » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:26 am

Webunny wrote: There is no need to be negative if it's not needed or warranted, and as far as the coding goes, imho there is little to be critical of, seen the complexity of coding a complete OS from scratch and the fact it's alpha.
It's because people have much freedom in choosing ways to help. Otherwise, the coding side of things would come to a standstill.
Z98 wrote: As such the default assumed position if there is no response should be that the project cannot take it on or does not need.
With such a position, people simply do not get enough feedback.

«Shut up and go away, you idiot, we need none of your help!» — you cannot produce even this kind of response! :)

Webunny
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:30 am

Z98 wrote:Seeing as attempting to indirectly state the following have completely failed.

1) As the project's manpower is limited, the only times when something the community participates in has any chance of being closely monitored and curated by the project's personnel are those that the project itself proposes it to the community. Anything that the community itself proposes faces the issue of, if the project had the manpower to deal with it, we probably would have already proposed it to the community at large. As such the default assumed position if there is no response should be that the project cannot take it on or does not need.

2) If the project does decide to accommodate a request or proposal, then the speed at which the proposal is acted upon is dependent on when manpower is available. If something takes six months to do, it is because other things were of greater priority to the project, regardless of the personal priority of whoever made the original proposal.

3) Offering yourself to perform work has little meaning unless the work in question is something the project would consider delegating. If the work is not something the project would consider delegating, volunteering for it has no effect on how quickly it can be done. Whether to delegate or not is dependent on the degree of trust that the project holds for a volunteer and the sensitivity of what the work entails. Even in cases where the task is mundane however, if there is not a sufficient degree of trust then the task will not be delegated.

4) Offering yourself to perform work does not mean the project is spared having to do work. The majority of the time anything proposed requires action on the project's part. If the required time is not available, then the offer will be declined. While you may regard this as the project foregoing freely provided results, we regard it as not taking on additional work for something that we may not yet need.
1)That's basically the top-down model I described. If it is not decided from 'above', it has almost no chance of getting anywhere, is what you actually say there. Whether it is due to a lack of manpower or something else, it remains the same concept, with the same results. One fails to see that with that attitude, the lack of manpower will also continue in the long run, since there is very little influx of 'new blood' possible. People from within the community who want to help out with little things are getting nowhere, getting frustrated and eventually leave. Thus, instead of stimulating a process of more community-participation by and from the community, which would eventually lead to having more manpower as a whole, one gets stuck in a chicken-or-egg problem. It is deemed no such bottom-up community-effort can be done because of lack of manpower, and because of this lackluster approach, very few manpower is added, which serves as a reason not to react to community-efforts, etc. Well, you know...maybe one should think of the long-term too, and break this cycle. The last sentence you use in that paragraph is, from the viewpoint of communication, a complete no-no. Seriously, it is. there is not one communication-theory who would claim it's normal practise that NO REACTION OR FEEDBACK should be considered a form of adequate feedback, not even negative feedback. This is exactly THE problem with communications around here, and rest assured, I'm well aware PR uses this frequently. which is why I always ask and discuss my projects in front, exactly to make sure I'm not on a fools' errand and my work is not for naught. Still with very little success, because even after the answer is general positive, once I do the work, still nothing happens with it. Which pisses me off even more, granted.


2) and 3): well, that's exactly one of the issues I wanted to point out. The priority for almost anything that the community does gets far too low of a priority. Yes, coding is the most important. It doesn't mean all the rest has no importance whatsoever. And yes, no doubt there are other things of PR as well that have a higher priority than what any community-member proposes, but there is a difference between giving something a higher priority and basically neglecting something because of giving it an ultra-low priority. As said in another post, it's not that I or others do not understand one is busy, but there are limits to everything. If something has SO low priority that it takes six months for a relatively easy task that only takes a fraction of that time to do, there is something wrong with the level at which one sets your priorities.

Furthermore, as I've tried to explain in the past, it is NOT only the direct value something has, but, certainly in the department of PR, also the indirect value it has too. Namely, in these cases, you create goodwill instead of frustration, you make people stay instead of leaving, you make people more inclined to also do other things, and in the long run reduce the shortage of manpower with it. All these things also mean you create and maintain a larger fanbase, which in turn can also test more, give more money, etc. It is in this context you have to view the proposals too, and prioritise them accordingly. This aspect has not seeped through within PR, I must honestly say. As you indicate yourself, virtual all proposals or actual work on things from the community - granted, often deemed of less important for the higher ups (but everything but coding is, really) - is deemed worth next to nothing compared to other things. It's exactly that which I tried to substantiate. It receives a much too low priority, to the point that even simple things lasts more than half a year. Well, sorry, this is not normal anymore. If anyone, you included, would be dealt with in such a manner by any other organisation you offered help and support, you would feel vexed and frustrated as well, and not offer any help anymore nor hold your support. Goodwill has to be created by both sides, after all.

And no, it's not like community-members are all unreasonable people who want 'their' idea to be implemented 'immediately' as 'it is'; most understand very well you're busy and short-handed. I personally, for instance, have been patient months upon months to have a rather trivial work been done so that my translated site works. I've reworked my newspaper - after a positive reaction to my suggestion on forehand to see if there was interest - until PR was satisfied. I did not complain about that at all. Idem with the wallpapers. And I'm sure others have done or proposed things too. Very few got ever implemented however, and certainly not within a reasonable time. (Reasonably being giving someone more than 1000 times the time that one normally would expect of a normal working organisation, for instance). This is, indeed - as you said - because you set SUCH a low priority on those things, that it's worth next to nothing - which, if you really are of that opinion, you should just say so in front, instead of making it sound that such help would be welcome and then afterwards put a priority 'next to worthless' to it. You seem to miss the understanding that it's better to have a clear 'no' than a 'sure go ahead' and then prioritise that work as nothing, making the person in question waste his time as well, making him frustrated, ignore all what he says (he'll discover soon enough that it means no after all if we ignore him long enough) and don't communicate about it. Then it's better to say outright you don't appreciate community efforts. Maybe make a banner on top of the forum.

But then also, do not be surprised if you stay short-handed in the long run, your fanbase doesn't really get much bigger, and your financial backing does not go beyond a maximum of around 30000 dollar. You can't grow in those aspects if you consider the proposals and work and help offered by your fanbase the lowest priority there is. I would, thus, keep this in mind when 'prioritising' things in the future. It's not because it's less tangible that that extra worth isn't there. It IS important to have an involved community, and not only from the top-down viewpoint but also the bottom-up way. Ignoring or neglecting help, offers and communication because it's so 'low priority' is not a good way to deal with that.

4)While it may take some small amount of work, the majority of the work is done by others, that's the whole point. Relative to the work as a whole, thus, one needs very little input of the devs/PR. Since I can't speak for others, I'll take my own eforts as examples again: I did not ask for anyone else to make a compilation of blogs as a new newsletter, I did it myself. I also didn't see (nor ask) any of the devs or PR to organise and maintain a wallpaper-contest on the forum, nor did I ask to search for adequate high-res pics and put them conveniently on a site to choose from. I didn't ask anyone else to translate the site in Dutch neither, or expected you or anyone else from PR to do it: that's why *I* offered to do that after all, and when it concerns work, I demand from myself to deliver good work in a reasonable timeframe. I also expect that of others. Regardless of personal opinions or even potential misgivings, once you decide to do a job, you do it as best and as quick as you can: that's called professionalism.

The expectation for this professionalism for and of all parties, is not unreasonable, me thinks. Thus, as one can see, 90% of that specific work is done by somebody else, and 10% is left for the PR. For that 10%, one can, however, expect the same professionalism. Yes, you are busy, have things with more priority and are time-constraint by real-life and other occupations. So am I. I do not invoke all these things to make people wait for more than half a year, nor to cancel things one agreed to, nor to ignore people or refuse to communicate or give adequate feedback to it. I, too, have many other priorities. It still does not mean I don't deliver what I agreed to or can reasonably expect my part of the job is (aka, when offering translation, I don't expect *you* to translate, for instance). But, in reverse, one CAN expect other people doing their part for the effort too. Even if they think and find the work is very low priority. The navigation buttons, for instance, prohibited any useful navigation through any of the pages/site that I translated. I could not do it. So it stands to reason you (PR) does it then, and that within a reasonable timeframe. I don't care how important one deems the priority to be: it comes with the job (if not of the devs, than certainly the job of PR/webmaster/etc.).

Now, it's one way or the other: OR you do the (10% of the) job that can be expected - yes, at a certain moment EVEN if it means postponing something else (unless one has no feeling of being reasonable in making people wait, nor being professional) - OR you give those people enough rights to do it themselves. However, none of the above is done. One either ignores or low-prioritises anything that isn't decided top-down (or is of personal interest) and complain the remaining work is still too much (the 'taking on additional work'), yet at the same time, one does not give people enough possibilities to do 100% of the work. Now, this is contradictory. Yes, one talks about how there must be enough trust to do that and what not, but in essence, what one is saying is: we can't do that because we're shorthanded, and we're shorthanded, because we don't trust enough people to give them the rights to help remedying our short-handedness. Well...be that as it may, but that's a decision you make of your own volition, then. Thus one can hardly complain about being shorthanded as if it were a force majeure. Mind you, I'm not saying you are wrong or right in being selective to whom you defer certain rights, but I AM saying that, if ones' excuse is that there are too few people helping, but at the same time you don't trust enough people to give those rights to, the problems lays squarely with you guys. Because it's a conscious decision on your part with as consequence one is and remains shorthanded, in that case. It's fully your right to distrust people wanting to help, but then don't invoke short-handedness as a reason you can't get anything of the community-proposals done.

In summary, I think it would do good to do a few things, if community effort is appreciated at all:

1)give a higher prioritisation to offers/proposals/work done from and by the community itself (not only the top-down kind, thus). In that respect, not only count the short-term direct result, but also the long-term indirect results of such a thing.

2)keep to minimum standards of delivery and professionalism. EVEN if you find something low-priority, and EVEN if one is busy, one must remain reasonable and understand one can't keep shoving something to the backburner eternally.This means, giving adequate feedback and/or going on with the (part of) the job within a reasonable timeframe. Ignoring, neglecting and not responding or doing anything for that particular job or person on your part for more than half a year is not reasonable.

3)If you're too shorthanded, delegate more. Decentralise. Give more rights to more people. Trust people more. If not, stop complaining about being shorthanded, since it's a direct result of not wanting to trust people enough to give them rights to help you. You can't have it both ways, and complain about it on the one hand and use it as an explanation why things don't get done, but at the same time not wanting to trust people enough to become less short-handed. Basically, it's YOUR decision to be shorthanded, then - if not as a goal, than in any case as a direct result of ones' own decisions made in this respect.

4)Even if the answer would be negative, it's necessary to give proper feedback on that. In front. And during/afterwards. Communication is at the heart of many problems, frustrations and other issues within a group of people. One must be able to speak openly and without always having to sugar-coat everything, but at the same time avoid being personal or resorting to namecalling or such. One can be open and direct and yet remain civil, after all. Also, one has to remain logical and to the point; there is no use for wish-wash and nonsensicalities, nor irrational back-and-forths. And yes, I know this takes time and effort, but that's part of the job. If you don't care nor want to do PR, then don't go for the job of PR. If you do accept the job of PR, then be professional and act the part. This also means realising that it's not just about things one is personally interested in or find high-priority, but also what the community wants or proposes. Since PR, after all, is dealing in a two-way direction with the community, and enlarging the fanbase should be a major part of any PR work.

justincase
Posts: 351
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Re: Greek & Dutch Language Flags

Post by justincase » Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:13 am

Apparently I forgot to make a JIRA report back when we were still talking about the missing language flag(s).
Anyway, I've made one now: ONLINE-478
Hopefully it will be seen and the changes integrated into the site.
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
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Re: Greek & Dutch Language Flags

Post by Webunny » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:02 pm

justincase wrote:Apparently I forgot to make a JIRA report back when we were still talking about the missing language flag(s).
Anyway, I've made one now: ONLINE-478
Hopefully it will be seen and the changes integrated into the site.
Well, I've indicated and even explicitly said so as well, also in pm, thus it is not that the issue isn't or wasn't known. But thanks anyway. Let's see (in 6 months) if it helped any...

justincase
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:13 pm

way to be pessimistic

Post by justincase » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:39 pm

Webbyny: What you don't seem to understand is that things are significantly more likely to get the attention needed to push them forward if one uses the right channels, and that the 'right channel' for getting the flags fixed is through a JIRA report, and the 'right channel' for many other things is one or another of the IRC channels, and that no amount of waiting or posting on the forums is going to change that.

Perhaps it will be 6 months, or a year, or a week, I don't know, but I've done my part and unless someone on the team wants to promote me to a position where I can go in and integrate the changes myself, the next thing to do is to either wait quietly, or to get on one of the IRC channels and ask someone there to take a look at it. Since I'm not very comfortable with IRC at the moment I'll wait quietly, but if you (or anyone else who wants to see this fixed) are willing to do that, then just please be sure to be polite so you don't alienate them.

Edit - actually it looks like it's already getting attention, so now I'm trying to convince people on JIRA that this change should happen. Wish me luck. :) (or politely help me to convince them)
Edit - AHAhahahahahahaha! it looks like the necessary people were convinced: JIRA comment
Hopefully the site will be updated to reflect the change soon.
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: way to be pessimistic

Post by Webunny » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:11 am

justincase wrote:Webbyny: What you don't seem to understand is that things are significantly more likely to get the attention needed to push them forward if one uses the right channels, and that the 'right channel' for getting the flags fixed is through a JIRA report, and the 'right channel' for many other things is one or another of the IRC channels, and that no amount of waiting or posting on the forums is going to change that.

Perhaps it will be 6 months, or a year, or a week, I don't know, but I've done my part and unless someone on the team wants to promote me to a position where I can go in and integrate the changes myself, the next thing to do is to either wait quietly, or to get on one of the IRC channels and ask someone there to take a look at it. Since I'm not very comfortable with IRC at the moment I'll wait quietly, but if you (or anyone else who wants to see this fixed) are willing to do that, then just please be sure to be polite so you don't alienate them.

Edit - actually it looks like it's already getting attention, so now I'm trying to convince people on JIRA that this change should happen. Wish me luck. :) (or politely help me to convince them)
Edit - AHAhahahahahahaha! it looks like the necessary people were convinced: JIRA comment
Hopefully the site will be updated to reflect the change soon.
I'm always polite. But I also say things as they are.

I'm not as lenient as you, however. I have certain minimum standards, and while I'll follow you with time-constraints and a waiting of hours, days, weeks and even months, I draw the line at about half a year for trivially-rectifiable matters.

As for 'choosing the right channels'; while procedures are important, actually reacting and fixing things are even far more important. Therefore - in my book - it does not matter HOW the devs/PR are made aware of it, as long AS they are made aware of it. And once they are made aware of it, the expectation is there that something will be done about it. If nothing is done, because it was pm'ed instead of JIRA, then one is basically claiming procedures go before fixing things. Besides, PR is active in here too, and nothing prohibits posting or pm'ing or actually demands that it can only be made aware on JIRA or IRC.

IRC is an even far more fleeting medium than the forum or pm's, so I have zero confidence in it. As for JIRA, that is a great thing to manage and have a progressive follow-up on things, which is why it's very suited for bug-reports. Not everything needs to go that way, however.

Well, that's my take on things. It *could* have been done around the same time the navigationbuttons were made (also outside JIRA, btw), but it wasn't, even though I pointed this out there and then.

However, justincase, I'm not complaining. I'm aware you have people of all sorts, and some are more inclined to follow the lines and procedures than others. On itself, there is nothing wrong with it, and in a surrounding where there is a fixated focus on procedures, it could be even be more fruitful, granted. However, for me it feels too much like BS that, while people are already aware of it, I still have to make another (but same) report according to procedures, or nothing comes of it.

Rest assured, in any case, that I will also be glad if it gets fixed within less than 6 months, regardless of whom or how it has been achieved.

PS. I don't understand the comment of "you should note that there is actually no translated content..." on there. Ermm... what about the content that was translated, then? My translation into Dutch is not invisible, I hope? ;-)

justincase
Posts: 351
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:23 am

Webunny wrote:I'm always polite. But I also say things as they are.
I beg to differ. Not in that you are intentionally being rude, but that you often seem to choose your words poorly, and I have seen a number of instances where what you have said most readily comes accross to the reader as being impolite. (I am willing to say that this is likely due at least in part to having English be a second language)
Webunny wrote:I'm not as lenient as you, however. I have certain minimum standards, and while I'll follow you with time-constraints and a waiting of hours, days, weeks and even months, I draw the line at about half a year for trivially-rectifiable matters.
It's not about you or I being lenient, but rather the fact that you and I have absolutely no authority over the Project, so there is literally nothing you can do, outside of the channels that have been made available, which will make a difference.

Also you have little to no way of knowing what is a "trivially rectifiable matter".
Example: I volunteer for a relatively small non-profit near where I live, and their website could use a major rewrite, but really NEEDS to have a number of small things (like removing incorrect contact information for people who no-longer have anything to do with the project) done, and if I had their site on my servers I would simply change it for them, or at the very least give them access to be able to change it themselves, but the website is hosted by some kid in a different country who's almost impossible to get in touch with, so their website hasn't been able to get more than the absolute bare minimum of updates (changing the date on the home page, swapping out an old PDF form with a new one) in YEARS.
Webunny wrote:As for 'choosing the right channels'; while procedures are important, actually reacting and fixing things are even far more important.
I agree, getting things fixed is more important than the choice of channels, that's why I chose to follow the established 'right channel' for getting the issue fixed rather than hoping someone would listen to me through my own preferred channel (the forum). :roll:
Therefore - in my book - it does not matter HOW the devs/PR are made aware of it, as long AS they are made aware of it.
Unfortunately for you, the rest of the world does not necessarily follow your book. Sorry.
And once they are made aware of it, the expectation is there that something will be done about it. If nothing is done, because it was pm'ed instead of JIRA, then one is basically claiming procedures go before fixing things.
I believe that there have been several times when you have brought up issues on the forums and people have informed you of which channel would be the appropriate one for you to submit that issue through. The fact that time and time again you have not done so indicates that you are actively resisting the established methods of getting work done. These methods have been put in place for a reason, and by refusing to utilise them you are effectively banning yourself from having a notable impact on the Project.
Besides, PR is active in here too, and nothing prohibits posting or pm'ing or actually demands that it can only be made aware on JIRA or IRC.
It's one thing to make someone aware of something, it's another to get it onto their todo list.
IRC is an even far more fleeting medium than the forum or pm's, so I have zero confidence in it.
The point of IRC is to have instant communication, and the fact that most of the active members of the ReactOS Project use the IRC channels, and the fact that there is almost always at least one Project member on each of the ReactOS Project's IRC channels makes it a very good method of getting the Project's attention, so if something seems to be taking a long time that you feel needs to be dealt with quicker, IRC is the ideal way to 'pop in' and say "Hey guys, can someone check this out? [link]" or "Hey guys, who should I ask for help with this? [link]", etc.
It's not about fleeting vs permanency, it's about getting their attention.
As for JIRA, that is a great thing to manage and have a progressive follow-up on things, which is why it's very suited for bug-reports. Not everything needs to go that way, however.
It's also a great way to manage ones workflow. You can easily bring up a list of issues that need to be solved, and start plowing through them looking for what needs to be done for what, take notes along the way, prioritise them, etc. It makes a great dynamic todo list.
Well, that's my take on things. It *could* have been done around the same time the navigationbuttons were made (also outside JIRA, btw), but it wasn't, even though I pointed this out there and then.
Perhaps it could have, or perhaps it couldn't have, you don't know that. And based on how this issue is being handled currently I'd say that a different person had to be involved in this than that.
However, justincase, I'm not complaining.
That's funny, it sounded like you were. :?
I'm aware you have people of all sorts, and some are more inclined to follow the lines and procedures than others. On itself, there is nothing wrong with it, and in a surrounding where there is a fixated focus on procedures, it could be even be more fruitful, granted. However, for me it feels too much like BS that, while people are already aware of it, I still have to make another (but same) report according to procedures, or nothing comes of it.
That just makes you sound really 'full of yourself'.
Rest assured, in any case, that I will also be glad if it gets fixed within less than 6 months, regardless of whom or how it has been achieved.
Oh, and if it takes 7 months for it to get fixed you won't be glad that it eventually did get fixed? Would you rather have it never get fixed than take more than 6 months? (these are rhetorical, no need to answer)
PS. I don't understand the comment of "you should note that there is actually no translated content..." on there. Ermm... what about the content that was translated, then? My translation into Dutch is not invisible, I hope? ;-)
This is likely due to the fact that when visiting the homepage in Nederlands or Ελληνικά it says under 'News' that "There seems to be no translated content for your language yet.", and you will also notice if you read my comment that reported that much of the website itself is translated into Nederlands, but that the News and Blog items are not, or that if they are, that they are not yet approved and published.
So no, your translations are not invisible, though I have yet to find anything published in Ελληνικά. (any comment on that crackez?)
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:13 pm

justincase wrote:
Webunny wrote:I'm always polite. But I also say things as they are.
I beg to differ. Not in that you are intentionally being rude, but that you often seem to choose your words poorly, and I have seen a number of instances where what you have said most readily comes accross to the reader as being impolite. (I am willing to say that this is likely due at least in part to having English be a second language).

My English is quite good. Note that 'being polite' is a subjective interpretation, however. So maybe we're talking different things. I'm sometimes quite direct and don't sugar-coat everything - that can come of as impolite. But I never resort to namecalling, flamebaiting or being personally aggressive or attacking. I try to remain as civil as possible and see a debate on the merits of the debate, not the person. In fact, I almost never remember which nick said what after a few weeks. I know this is different for other persons, who think it is or has become a personal matter, but it never is for me. I focus on the debate and the arguments, not the person, so I seldom bare any grudges whatsoever. Even you make that mistake sometimes, talking about 'dragging you in' while neither the 'you' nor the 'dragging' has any relevance to why I use an argument given.
Webunny wrote:I'm not as lenient as you, however. I have certain minimum standards, and while I'll follow you with time-constraints and a waiting of hours, days, weeks and even months, I draw the line at about half a year for trivially-rectifiable matters.
It's not about you or I being lenient, but rather the fact that you and I have absolutely no authority over the Project, so there is literally nothing you can do, outside of the channels that have been made available, which will make a difference.
No, it's not about that. In fact, it has nothing to do with 'having authority to do so'. It's the principle that counts, not whether one can exercise authority. For instance, I've recently bought something cheap from China. It was DOA. I've been in contact and tried to get this problem remedied for weeks and weeks, now. There too, I'm coming slowly to the point I find it totally unacceptable. However, it's a shop in China: I can hardly go there and make a fist. They don't follow EU consumer rules neither, so I have little to no legal recourse neither. De facto, I have no authority over it, and I'm well aware I'm dependent on the whims of that shop. There too, "there is literally nothing I can do". However, that has no bearings on my evaluation of it whatsoever. Once reasonable terms are exceeded - and they are fast approaching - I WILL be giving critique, I WILL be giving it bad reviews and I WILL say that such service is not normal anymore. And rightfully so. Point is, if certain limits and principles are trespassed and beyond normal and reasonable measurement, one is completely and rightfully entitled to say that. It has NOTHING to do with being able to do anything about it, but all with the principle of remaining within reasonable expectations of professionalism.
Also you have little to no way of knowing what is a "trivially rectifiable matter".
I beg to differ with THAT. You'll seldom see me criticise things I find myself not knowledgeable enough of. If you check my posts, for instance, you'll see no critique on how slow or inadequate or whatever the coding of ROS is or goes, as some do. That's because I do not feel entitled to make such a statement, since I know too little of coding an OS. I DO however know what a 'trivial rectifiable matter' in the context of changing something on a webpage is, or ought to be. I've had and am still owner of several sites, and I can change a few buttons (and much more, in fact) in a manner of minutes. Just like I do know how a system for shipments can be set up without to much hassle for the one doing the shipment itself, as explained in another thread. That's because I've done so myself. I also know how an organisation, even a non-profit ought to work and be organised, since I have been for years, and still am in some cases, quite intimately involved with several. And thus not only as a member, but also as a member of the executive committee.

When I say, in these matters, that it's 'not normal' anymore, and it doesn't operate very well, I know what I'm talking about, and it's exactly that.

Mind you, it's quite possible, for the website, for instance, that the technical system one choose is so utterly bad and user-unfriendly, that, indeed, it costs half a day (6 months is just TOO much, obviously) instead of 5 minutes to do something so trivial. However, that only means their judgement was flawed when choosing that system, and it changes nothing to the fact it's still not normal one has to wait 6 months for something like that to get done. In our day and age, a trivial thing like adding a navigation-button should be easily done. If not, than one can pose serious questions about it. This doesn't mean I blame someone personally, btw, it's just the observation that it is NOT normal and changes should be made to have a more reasonable and professional attitude and service. Whether profit or non-profit, one must adhere to some minimum standards.
Webunny wrote:As for 'choosing the right channels'; while procedures are important, actually reacting and fixing things are even far more important.
I agree, getting things fixed is more important than the choice of channels, that's why I chose to follow the established 'right channel' for getting the issue fixed rather than hoping someone would listen to me through my own preferred channel (the forum).
You miss my point. If fixing things is the most important, than it doesn't matter whether or not you are made aware about it 'via the proper channels'. The procedures are a means to an end, not the end itself. Therefore, it should not matter how you became aware of a problem: if fixing it is the most important - as you seem to agree - than it should be dealt with, as good, swift and professional as possible, period.

Therefore - in my book - it does not matter HOW the devs/PR are made aware of it, as long AS they are made aware of it.
Unfortunately for you, the rest of the world does not necessarily follow your book. Sorry.
See above. I do not expect people to follow my book. But I do expect them to do as what can normally be expected that one does, if fixing problems is deemed more important than the procedures and channels by which you have been made aware of the problem.

And once they are made aware of it, the expectation is there that something will be done about it. If nothing is done, because it was pm'ed instead of JIRA, then one is basically claiming procedures go before fixing things.
I believe that there have been several times when you have brought up issues on the forums and people have informed you of which channel would be the appropriate one for you to submit that issue through. The fact that time and time again you have not done so indicates that you are actively resisting the established methods of getting work done. These methods have been put in place for a reason, and by refusing to utilise them you are effectively banning yourself from having a notable impact on the Project.
See above.
Besides, PR is active in here too, and nothing prohibits posting or pm'ing or actually demands that it can only be made aware on JIRA or IRC.
It's one thing to make someone aware of something, it's another to get it onto their todo list.
Hence, where a professional attitude comes into play.
IRC is an even far more fleeting medium than the forum or pm's, so I have zero confidence in it.
The point of IRC is to have instant communication, and the fact that most of the active members of the ReactOS Project use the IRC channels, and the fact that there is almost always at least one Project member on each of the ReactOS Project's IRC channels makes it a very good method of getting the Project's attention, so if something seems to be taking a long time that you feel needs to be dealt with quicker, IRC is the ideal way to 'pop in' and say "Hey guys, can someone check this out? [link]" or "Hey guys, who should I ask for help with this? [link]", etc.

It's not about fleeting vs permanency, it's about getting their attention.
That's strange. Only a moment ago, you yourself said it's not about getting attention, but about getting onto their to do list. And this is why and where, due to it being fleeting (which why it is relevant) that IRC fails miserably. I'm not being unduly negative, and I'm of the opinion each medium has it's strong and weak points, but one can not deny the severe drawbacks of irc neither, just because it's treated as 'the preferred channel'. It's the preferred channel for devs to freely (and fleetingly) chat, yes. That does not mean things get any faster done in regard to, say, buttons on the website. It's reasonably ok for getting help with test-issues and dealing with ROS-code or run-problems. I've used it myself for that purpose, when I did regression-testing. But it won't get you any closer to fixing or dealing with the things I talked about. Otherwise, let's take the test and mention on irc some problem with a navigation-button there when a new translation is made, and let's see how long it then takes.
As for JIRA, that is a great thing to manage and have a progressive follow-up on things, which is why it's very suited for bug-reports. Not everything needs to go that way, however.
It's also a great way to manage ones workflow. You can easily bring up a list of issues that need to be solved, and start plowing through them looking for what needs to be done for what, take notes along the way, prioritise them, etc. It makes a great dynamic todo list.
JIRA too, is useful in it's own right, and for the purposes it was intended. It's far more permanent and less fleeting, so it has different strong and weak points. The forum is something between that and IRC, in regard to the flexibility and low-threshold and permeability of making someone aware of a problem. It is, thus, also a channel of communication with it's strong and weak points, but that does not mean it should be regarded as it NOT being a communication-channel anymore.
However, justincase, I'm not complaining.
That's funny, it sounded like you were. :?
An intelligent person as you surely sees the difference between complaining and giving critique on the way things are handled, and a complaint to you because you issued a JIRA report about the flags. The latter makes no sense, the first does.
I'm aware you have people of all sorts, and some are more inclined to follow the lines and procedures than others. On itself, there is nothing wrong with it, and in a surrounding where there is a fixated focus on procedures, it could be even be more fruitful, granted. However, for me it feels too much like BS that, while people are already aware of it, I still have to make another (but same) report according to procedures, or nothing comes of it.
That just makes you sound really 'full of yourself'.
That 'may' sound like that, but than again, some things you said may sound slightly condescending/patronising and 'stepmotherly' as well. Hence my first sentence, where I allude on people being quite different, and one has to show some leeway when dealing with others. Just as you do - I presume - not want to be patronising and no doubt rather say it with good intent, one must not concentrate on interpreting with emotions, but with ratio. In this respect, what I sound like is of less importance than the fact that it, indeed, makes no sense to have to make aware something to someone who is already aware of it, but won't budge unless it's done through certain channels. If, as said, results and fixing things have priority above following procedures, then such attitude is unprofessional. If this is to be considered to be 'full of oneself' by some, so be it. It is also true and logically obvious.
Rest assured, in any case, that I will also be glad if it gets fixed within less than 6 months, regardless of whom or how it has been achieved.
Oh, and if it takes 7 months for it to get fixed you won't be glad that it eventually did get fixed? Would you rather have it never get fixed than take more than 6 months? (these are rhetorical, no need to answer)
Nah. People seem to think because they say 'it was rhetorical' they're exempt from any riposte. This is seldom the case, imho. Because, even when the question itself doesn't need an answer, a rhetorical question in this sort of context is seldom made without *any* purpose of meaning. Therefore, while it is not needed to answer the question, it is often necessary to handle the underlying message. Furthermore, rhetorical questions are not exempt from logic neither.

What you are doing here, is making a type of informal fallacy, namely a false dichotomy. It's not about 'whether' I like it 'never' fixed, or 'whether' I would like it to 'take more than 6 months'. It's fully possible, and even reasonable to expect, that a minor matter WILL get fixed and WITHIN six months. So the choice you offer is a false one. The same goes for your first sentence. I will be glad it 'eventually' get fixed, but at the same time, I won't be glad it took 7 months. You try to invoke some mutual exclusiveness, where there is none. There is no dichotomy there.

PS. I don't understand the comment of "you should note that there is actually no translated content..." on there. Ermm... what about the content that was translated, then? My translation into Dutch is not invisible, I hope? ;-)
This is likely due to the fact that when visiting the homepage in Nederlands or Ελληνικά it says under 'News' that "There seems to be no translated content for your language yet.", and you will also notice if you read my comment that reported that much of the website itself is translated into Nederlands, but that the News and Blog items are not, or that if they are, that they are not yet approved and published.

So no, your translations are not invisible, though I have yet to find anything published in Ελληνικά. (any comment on that crackez?)
You mean the newssection on the bottom? Yes, I've been wondering about that too. I've been wanting to ask how to get to that too, but seen the fact of the humongous time and effort it took for far minor things to get fixed or done, I'm really reluctant to do that. That too, is an obvious consequence of such previous experiences: one feels very little motivation anymore to go any further, like translating the things that aren't yet. For instance, I would NOT make the effort to translate the parts that aren't translated yet, unless I get the assurance it will be made workable in a reasonable time (aka, 6 months). If one can't make that assurance, then fine, I won't bother neither. Alas, that is one of the consequences, because 'full' or not, I refuse to be on a fools' errand. If I make the effort, I expect others to make the effort too. It's that simple, and, frankly, I find this a basic form of reciprocity.

Black_Fox
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Black_Fox » Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:51 pm

@Webunny: justincase silently creates a 3-line bug report at proper place and it's fixed in a week. Learn from that, your pages and pages of text have lesser impact because many people just opt out from reading them.

Webunny
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:36 pm

Black_Fox wrote:@Webunny: justincase silently creates a 3-line bug report at proper place and it's fixed in a week. Learn from that, your pages and pages of text have lesser impact because many people just opt out from reading them.
I have no problem with that at all: people should feel free to read what they want. Some like it short, others more elaborate. Personally, I'm of the opinion one-liners make for very bad debates, because they often lack any nuance, which is why a longer post is needed to explain more in-depth. Justincase himself was pretty elaborate in his posts too, btw, so I think he's of the same opinion. And also, the fact that I have a discussion with justincase in no way mean I do not appreciate him making bug-reports. It's that sort of linear thinking I was alluding at in my post, in fact.

justincase
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:02 am

Actually Webunny, in one of your recent posts you mentioned that it's "about the debate", and at that point I stopped reading, and haven't fully read a single one of your long posts since.
I can understand a long post when one is warranted, I have made a number of them when I thought that they would help you (or others) to understand something, but you've proven to me that you don't want help, that you don't really want to help get things done, and AFAICT you just want to tell everybody that they're wrong. So unless you can prove me wrong about that by learning from what people have been posting, being polite, being pithy, and actually helping people, I see no reason to read your longer posts any more.

And to get back on track with the subject of this topic:
I see flags for both Nederlands and Ελληνικά now, so that's good (thank you Z98, zehnvor & Heis Spiter / Pierre Schweitzer).
@crackez, any chance we could get a comment on how the translation into Greek/Ελληνικά is coming?
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

Webunny
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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:34 pm

justincase wrote:Actually Webunny, in one of your recent posts you mentioned that it's "about the debate", and at that point I stopped reading, and haven't fully read a single one of your long posts since.
I can understand a long post when one is warranted, I have made a number of them when I thought that they would help you (or others) to understand something, but you've proven to me that you don't want help, that you don't really want to help get things done, and AFAICT you just want to tell everybody that they're wrong. So unless you can prove me wrong about that by learning from what people have been posting, being polite, being pithy, and actually helping people, I see no reason to read your longer posts any more.

And to get back on track with the subject of this topic:
I see flags for both Nederlands and Ελληνικά now, so that's good (thank you Z98, zehnvor & Heis Spiter / Pierre Schweitzer).
@crackez, any chance we could get a comment on how the translation into Greek/Ελληνικά is coming?
First of all, if one is reading it anyway, it should be read good. What I said was: "I try to remain as civil as possible and see a debate on the merits of the debate, not the person." And I stand with that statement. If giving quotes to make a point, be intellectual honest and use the quote in it's totality, please. Now it comes off as twisting ones' words. Even when I would say or have said such a thing, thus, it should have been clear I mean it in that sense. When debating something, it's important to see the strengths and weaknesses used in the debate, to gauge the worth of what is said. It would be ironic if, indeed, you stopped reading at that point, thus. ;)

I fully understand the points you want to make, jusincase, however, the fact you now prove you DID read my post, somewhat dilutes the statements, content-wise, of your last post. I too, have made several posts in the hope that it would help you to understand my points, but also to no avail, it would seem. However, contrary to you, I do not (claim to) not read your posts, since I always find it interesting to read the thoughts others have. Whether or not I, or anyone, learns something from it, is of course up to the individual; there has to be an evaluation by the person him/herself IF what is being said is to be considered worthwhile enough to want (or be) 'learning' from, after all. For instance, you have clearly deemed you can not learn anything from what I wrote in long posts, since you stopped reading them. Fine. I mean, really: fine. You have that right, and I won't complain afterwards 'that you didn't learn anything'. It's not for me, or anyone else to complain about such a thing, as long as it's about individual choices, aka, if the only thing to which it has any bearing on is that person itself.

So, justincase, it works in both ways. You deem I learn nothing from you, but I could as well say the same of you (nuance: within this particular debate, which doesn't mean 'never'). For instance, I've tried to point out more than once why there is a difference between being impolite and being direct, and why it's often necessary to make longer posts, than short ones. You seem to have ignored those, and still continue with your first idea, making it more or less immutable to all what I say or said.

Also, I try to avoid generalisations. While it is certainly true it's shorter to say 'you just want to tell others they are wrong', it also lacks the nuance that I made in my posts, which should have made it clear I only complain when I feel there are logical arguments and reasonable expectations for it to complain about. There are myriads of posts every month; on most I never complain. See? This is exactly the nuance that gets lost when you use 'short posts' full of generalisations. No, what I strive for is more complex than that; I try to give others logical arguments about how I came to certain conclusions or make certain complaints and even when I'm of the opinion others are wrong, I focus on the arguments given during the debate and not the person. That some people either do not like that, do not want to read them or think it proves I don't want to learn anything, that's their prerogative, but that doesn't make it true. Just like the reverse isn't true: I don't 'have' to do these things neither. For me personally - and I already said that, but apparently still not enough - the only thing that can convince me to change my mind about things I already pondered considerably about, are rational reasonings substantiated with logical arguments. That is all. If I find none or little of that back, you can't convince me, or, if you prefer, I "won't learn". That's because there is no validation to learn from it in the first place.

This is not the same as saying you are wrong in everything you or someone else says, mind you. For instance, it speaks for itself that you are right that making a bug report to JIRA will get it quicker fixed than just saying something about it on the forum. However, you are barking up the wrong tree here. That was not the point I was making. What I said was, that one should also expect, once one is aware of a problem, and one finds fixing it more important than the channel through which you are made aware of it, that the problem should be fixed as well - and while slower, still in a reasonable amount of time. There is nothing extra-ordinary or unreasonable about such a claim. Also, as I said earlier, each medium or channel may have its strong and its weak points in matters of flexibility, low-treshold and permeability of making someone aware of a problem. This is also obviously true. This is the sort of nuance that gets lost in short posts which are full of (over)generalisations. And when it is ignored, it's rather easy to say the other doesn't learn: since it's not in the context of pupil vs. teacher (though you seem to think it is, mayhap?), learning is a two way street of equal importance. It's clear for me you didn't really learn much neither, but I refrain from making a judgement about that. One might, if one is a bit cynical, conclude that what you learned is (apparently) not to read any posts of me anymore, but even that isn't quite true, since you're clearly reading them. However, I try to steer away of that sort of cynicism, since I always think people are, in essence, still subject to ratio as well. And luckily so, I would venture.

Again, this does not mean I don't appreciate you making bugreports on JIRA, or wanting to help me (there is nothing wrong with the intention, after all), but before intentions are displayed, it is necessary to comprehend what I actually complain about, not what you think I'm complaining about. I've tried my best with my posts, but apparently the effort was not good enough. I fully comprehend that from your viewpoint, when not fully grasping what I'm talking about, it might seem that I refute or ignore your help. Only, your help was irrelevant to what I was complaining about. As an analogy: it would be like I was complaining a taxi-company didn't pick up their phones or reacted to their app, and you say: "ah, but you can mail or fax too. It is their preferred way, so it probably will get done faster." Yeah, that might help to get a taxi sooner, but it in no way diminishes the fact they should be reachable by phone too, as one can reasonably expect. This holds true whatever the means are, btw: as long as they have different official ways of contacting them, each way should evoke a response within a reasonable timelimit. So, if they have mail, phones, a fax, etc., one might reasonably expect they'll still send a cab, EVEN if one way is the preferred way and gets you a cab sooner. When I point this out, and you say 'I give up, you don't want to learn.' it comes over as completely absurd or even a bit patronising, or both, frankly. It would imply one thinks the other doesn't know there is a phone and you can call for a cab that way. But that was not the point he was making, nor does he receive any help from that knowledge - which he already knew - no, his point was that, if they have a phone, an app, a fax and email to contact them, it should work through those means as well. And if it doesn't, it's warranted to point this out, and the complaint is and remains valid.

Do I therefore think the other party is doing something wrong with wanting to point out there are phones too? Of course not. On a bad day, I sometimes feel like they are patronising or, at least, seem to think for some reason that others are unaware of such obvious things, granted. Especially since they should be aware one is already aware of it, since I used those other means myself already in the past. However, I understand they usually mean well, but just didn't understand the issue, and were trying to help with something, which wasn't the thing I was actually talking about.




And, indeed, to get back on track: seems that the flags are, indeed, placed there, which obviously is a good thing. The flags seemed a bit 'light' when you first see them, but I note it's the same with the others and it's just to get an effect on the 'mouse-over', I guess. The only thing remaining (I'm talking specifically about the Dutch translation) is how to translate the news-area as well, then. I don't see an obvious way to do it with my current translating-rights, so I imagine something else is needed, or it's done in a non-standard manner.

justincase
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:27 am

TL;DR - I skimmed your post and your making a bunch of incorrect assumptions.

I said I hadn't fully read any of your long posts since, which is still true, I've read about half of one or two, and I've skimmed the rest, the post I was responding to was 6 sentences long, so the fact that I read it in its entirety does not change the fact that I have not fully read any of your long posts since.

And I don't enjoy online debates any more than I like real life ones, so the fact that you saw those posts as a debate at all is a major part of what makes me so uninterested in what you have to say now. In my opinion forums are for the interchange of knowledge and experience, not pointless debates. (that's not to say that all online debates are pointless, but rather that the specific posts I'm referring to are, if viewed as a debate, pointless in my eyes)

I do see a difference between being impolite vs being direct, and when you make a post that I have to scroll through several pages worth of screen-real-estate to say something that could have been stated in the space of one or less, you're being verbose, not direct.
When I said "you just want to tell others they are wrong", I wasn't trying for any nuance, I was being direct, as you claim to be, and I was saying that in general your longer posts are more about how and why you think someone or other is wrong than they are about actually being helpful to anyone, and yes I realise this is a generalisation, but if you look at your longer posts objectively I think you'll see the same pattern.

Now I'd like to know what crackez has to say about the Greek/Ελληνικά translation. :?:
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

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Re: Greek translation

Post by Webunny » Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:19 pm

justincase wrote:TL;DR - I skimmed your post and your making a bunch of incorrect assumptions.

I said I hadn't fully read any of your long posts since, which is still true, I've read about half of one or two, and I've skimmed the rest, the post I was responding to was 6 sentences long, so the fact that I read it in its entirety does not change the fact that I have not fully read any of your long posts since.

And I don't enjoy online debates any more than I like real life ones, so the fact that you saw those posts as a debate at all is a major part of what makes me so uninterested in what you have to say now. In my opinion forums are for the interchange of knowledge and experience, not pointless debates. (that's not to say that all online debates are pointless, but rather that the specific posts I'm referring to are, if viewed as a debate, pointless in my eyes)

I do see a difference between being impolite vs being direct, and when you make a post that I have to scroll through several pages worth of screen-real-estate to say something that could have been stated in the space of one or less, you're being verbose, not direct.
When I said "you just want to tell others they are wrong", I wasn't trying for any nuance, I was being direct, as you claim to be, and I was saying that in general your longer posts are more about how and why you think someone or other is wrong than they are about actually being helpful to anyone, and yes I realise this is a generalisation, but if you look at your longer posts objectively I think you'll see the same pattern.

Now I'd like to know what crackez has to say about the Greek/Ελληνικά translation. :?:
Come, come, you answered this post (viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13390&start=75#p112129), which is clearly far more than six sentences long. In fact, it's clearly what you describe as being long, and your answer was pretty long too. Let's not beat around the bush: it's clear your statements in this regard aren't all that accurate, and frankly, I don't see the reason why it needs to be denied so much. Well, except maybe because it's otherwise contradictory to what you said afterwards about not reading them, or not liking long posts, while doing it yourself. But I would have guessed we're both mature enough not to get in this kind of tit-for-tat arguments. If you want to make a case you're not 'reading' it, but 'skimming' it, and that it's only a post of 6 sentences long you responded to - for f- sake, fine. Using euphemisms don't really change this anyhow.

Contrary to you, I often enjoy debates, though, obviously, it depends on the debate and how well it's argumented. There are debates where nothing sensible is said or can be deduced and merely are the venting of opinions without any substantiation, where my interest declines too. And yes, 'debates' are anything that involves an engagement in argument by discussing opposing points. Aka, about a lot of matters we have opposing ideas (impolite, direct, helping, critique, etc.) and we were and are discussing it, hence: a debate. This to, seems a bit silly to deny that as well. It's not dependent on whether you or I 'see the posts as a debate', it's dependent whether it was, or not, a debate, as a debate is defined. And it is. But, you know, feel free to use an euphemism again. Maybe 'an exchange of words' will do? ;) You can interchange everytime I say 'debate' with that, if it makes it more palatable for you.

I agree that forums are not for pointless debates, but the main differentiator there is 'pointless'. I do not feel discussions where logical reasonings substantiated by rational arguments are used are pointless, since, as said, I think it has value in seeking the merit of the arguments given - which also links to your 'experience' and 'knowledge', though, obviously, not in a constricted manner (for instance, about how to debug). Which is very helpful as well in their own right, mind you, but it's clear forums were NOT only created for that purpose alone (aka, to give technical help), not even this forum, and certainly not fora in general . Often (links to) the wiki would do a better job at it in most cases, if it was just about that. In fact, claiming forums should be restricted to only that kind of information goes against the vast body of evidence for what forums are used for in general. A forum is, par excellence, suited and meant for..yes, debates, conversations, discussions and even social interaction in a broad sense. Which does not mean it excludes 'knowledge' and 'experience', of course.

There is also some contradiction in here, in as far as you claim you find these kind of posts boring and do not want to read nor engage in them, and yet you do. From my stance, since I enjoy most debates and often find some value in it, it makes sense and it is logical to continue the debate. But from your stance it makes no logical sense that you, at one hand, would claim you're not interested in it, but still continue on with it. If you do not find it worthwhile to read or to respond, and you've given up on your 'wanting to help or learn me something' (which was not to the point in this particular case), and you do not want to engage in a debate with me...why are you continuing it? Unless one would presume there is a non-logical compulsory reason for it, what you say and do contradicts.


With 'direct' I wasn't talking about the long posts (that was the argument thereafter), but in contrast with the 'impolite'. With direct, I meant 'not sugar-coating it'. This is what happens if you 'skim' or do not read posts attentively: you often have it wrong. This is not a comment solely for you personally, btw, but rather a general truth: if one does not read something - because you're not interested or think you've read it all before - then you do not really know what you are responding too, or say or interpret things, that already have been said or were explained before. Basically, responding to something you only read half or 'skimmed' is a bad idea, and it'll often show. It also is a dubious practise on itself, of course. If one can't be bothered to read something properly, one can't be bothered giving a proper response neither - since the latter is a consequence of the first.

As of the matter of verbosity: let's agree to disagree. I mean, from a general viewpoint, I could agree, but it's clear we have different parameters for it. It's true that being succinct is a good thing, but, as said many times now, if we're not talking about something straightforward, like making a bugreport, but something more complex, and you want to give room to nuance, you can not do that by making a short response. The shorter, the more you let things 'away'. If not, all posts could be reduced to a one-liner. And even in-depth articles would need no more then 3 sentences. Clearly, this is not the case in reality. True, I sometimes have to repeat some things in my posts; I'm not too keen on re-iterating much myself, but I've found it necessary to do so, alas. Because often, the other party acts as if nothing has been said about it already, or as if it hasn't already been responded to. Some things you say in your posts also show this; even though I already said it before, you seem to not have noted it and act as if nothing has been said about the matter. Like; you should have long since been aware what I meant with 'direct', and realised it has nothing to do with longer posts. Granted, in your case it's understandable, since you hardly read what I wrote, but it makes things pretty tiring to have to point it out again and again because you missed it in my posts or couldn't be bothered to read it all. Also you are sometimes barking up the wrong tree because you failed to read it properly. It certainly is not conductive to a good communication.

There is also no link between being 'direct' and being 'not nuanced'. What you say may have been direct, but it was not nuanced, and thus a generalisation, and thus, at least partially wrong, like all generalisations are. In contrast, my posts can contain elements that are direct, but I always try to put nuance in it. It's not black-or-white in my book - a pattern you might discover in my longer posts, if you made the trouble of reading them whole, which, dixit yourself, you don't do. So I wasn't complaining about you being direct, I was pointing out your lack of nuance in your statement. And yes, it makes for a shorter, less 'verbose' post, but obviously also a more incorrect one. Note, however, that, just as I value nuance in my posts even when being direct, you also do not need to be direct AND use broad, incorrect generalisations with it. It's perfectly possible to be direct and yet maintain some nuance. Hence, why I think your counterargument now is pretty weak, as it seems to imply "I'm only being direct as you are, that is all". But that is not all. At that point, you may be direct as I am, but you do not use any nuance with it, as I do. This makes your 'being direct' closer to your own definition of being impolite, one would reasonably presume. And as said, I have no problem with your or anyone's directness, but using generalisations which one knows in front are incorrect (as you yourself acknowledged), dilutes the communication far more than being direct while also providing nuance. But, granted, this takes more effort, and longer posts.




It seems to me this is a déjà vu. Yes, cracker should say something about the translation. :) Though, let's be honest: most of our last posts had little to do with it. For me, it makes more sense since I'm also interested in our conversation, but I do not understand your drive for continuing, since it "is pointless in your eyes", dixit yourself. I think you want to indicate you don't see it as a debate or discussion, but obviously, since we are responding to eachother and discussing the (often opposing) points in eachothers' posts, it clearly IS a discussion/debate. Even when using an euphemism for it, you know this to be true, since that is the very definition of having a discussion/debate. One can hardly claim they are all unrelated, independent posts that just so happen to be placed under eachother mentioning the things of eachother, merely by pure chance. ;)

justincase
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Re: Greek translation

Post by justincase » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:15 pm

Are you an idiot? (sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but seriously, do you not understand the passage of time? :| )
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13390&start=75#p112129 (where I tried to follow your logic and point out the fallacies in most sections of your post) was posted BEFORE viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13390&p=112161#p112161 where you stated that you "focus on the debate and the arguments", which told me that you're not focusing on helping people, at which point I stopped fully reading your long posts.

Again I skimmed your post, and you must either have an extremely low ability to understand, or you're intentionally misinterpreting much of what I've said.
Much of what you posted on that thread (and several others as well) did not qualify (in the eyes of someone who has personal experience with the subject matter) as "rational arguments", so my point about that specific 'debate' being pointless still stands, and the bit about my current posts being long is moot as I'm not elaborating on much, and am keeping them within one page of screen-real-estate (on a 1024x768 monitor).

And my reason for posting again after you have is twofold, partly I'd like to help you understand what you're doing wrong so you can fix it, and (now more important to me) I want the end of the last post on this thread to be directly asking crackez for a comment regarding the Greek translation, as I doubt that he/she is likely to read all of the posts between his/her last post on this thread and the most recent one fully.

Thus:
@crackez: How is the Greek/Ελληνικά translation coming?
I reserve the right to completely ignore any portion of any post if I deem it not constructive and/or likely to cause the discussion to degenerate.

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