Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 (and sometimes 5.2) that should NOT be ported to React

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dizt3mp3r
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by dizt3mp3r » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm

One feature that I deeply dislike in Windows in general from 95 upward is the inability of a window to hold focus. Users that have never known another windowing system are probably unaware that there is another, better approach. When I click on a window in something like Motif or Dec windows I give that window focus, it is a manual selection on the part of the user that gives security to the user knowing that anything he types into that window stays in that window.

In the example of a password window, the visually obfuscated text is typed into a input field on a form that has focus and when the password is completed the user hits return or presses a button and the password is accepted. NOT in the case of windows. The user can be merrily typing his password looking down at the keyboard and the o/s can pop up another window that takes focus away from the user and which takes the currently typed input as text for it to handle or display depending upon what it is doing, compromising the user's password, and making a mockery of security on that system. It does not have to be a pop-up window, it can merely be an application that is taking a long time to start. I have known systems that initiate a lot of apps on startup taking focus away multiple times from a password entry attempt. This is SO important in this day and age where every tool/site asks you for a password.

Windows has the idea of pop-ups to tell a user what is happening, it is rather useless when that pop up or other app takes focus and you find half of what you've typed has gone nowhere. You may think this is trivial but in the security world this is a BIG DEAL. Being able to pop up another window and steal a users' password input? Great for the thief but from the security expert's perspective Windows is rubbish.

There should be a choice that protects the user window selected from being superceded by any pop-up. On superior systems that honoured the users' window selection there exists an alternative, a notification window where such pop-ups could be captured or the output diverted.

I'd love ReactOS to do certain things better than Windows, this is one that I do not expect to make beta or live but I'd like it to lodge in the consciousness of the ReactOS cloud as one of those potential improvements of ReactOS over Windows that could make ReactOS more acceptable in the real world.

dizt3mp3r
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by dizt3mp3r » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:52 am

So, who is going to maintain the list of aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React?

This thread will become a series of ramblings unless we have a list, it should really be the OP that creates/maintains it - and the list ought to my mind go into the first post so it can always be found.

Or we start a new thread and place the list there at the top just as we have done for the 50 specific reasons for wanting ReactOS list
https://www.reactos.org/forum/viewtopic ... 68#p123529

PurpleGurl
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by PurpleGurl » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:23 pm

Or create a wiki page for this list. I have just started with that.

karlexceed
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by karlexceed » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:50 pm

PurpleGurl wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:23 pm
I have just started with that.
Whaaat? Damn, and here I though I was gonna be helpful: https://reactos.org/wiki/How_ReactOS_Ca ... n_Vista%2B



karlexceed
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by karlexceed » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:42 pm

PurpleGurl's is much cleaner; I just did a lot of copy/pasting. I'm perfectly fine with ceding this one to them.

PurpleGurl
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by PurpleGurl » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:05 pm

You can continue yours or take over editing the one I started. It doesn't matter. We all want the best ReactOS we can get. I notice yours has a few I didn't manage to lift out as ideas, so yours is currently more thorough.

erkinalp
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by erkinalp » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:31 pm

GNOME works around modal problem by making modal dialogs look different, like this:
Image
However, as all dialogs are modal on Windows, this will not work.
Last edited by erkinalp on Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
-uses Ubuntu+GNOME 3 GNU/Linux
-likes Free (as in freedom) and Open Source Detergents
-favors open source of Windows 10 under GPL2

dizt3mp3r
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by dizt3mp3r » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:50 pm

erkinalp wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:31 pm
GNOME works around modal problem by making modal dialogs look different. However, as all dialogs are modal on Windows, this will not work.
I gather that but there might be a way of enforcing it by diverting any other information pop-ups using the window manager for example. Other applications taking focus away? I am sure it can be done with some thought. I do not expect it to be easy nor within alpha/beta but some thought into making it possible by design...

Forever Winter
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by Forever Winter » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm
NOT in the case of windows. The user can be merrily typing his password looking down at the keyboard and the o/s can pop up another window that takes focus away from the user and which takes the currently typed input as text for it to handle or display depending upon what it is doing, compromising the user's password, and making a mockery of security on that system.
It is not the fault of the operating system, if you use software that displays password dialogs where they should not be in the first place.

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm
Windows has the idea of pop-ups to tell a user what is happening, it is rather useless when that pop up or other app takes focus and you find half of what you've typed has gone nowhere.
Maybe you should stop using an ancient version of Windows.

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm
You may think this is trivial but in the security world this is a BIG DEAL. Being able to pop up another window and steal a users' password input? Great for the thief but from the security expert's perspective Windows is rubbish.
Probably not as big as installing a window hook that waits until your password dialog is created and starts sending messages to it.

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:31 pm
On superior systems that honoured the users' window selection there exists an alternative, a notification window where such pop-ups could be captured or the output diverted.
On superior systems, yes? You realize that Windows has something similar since eighteen years?

erkinalp wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:31 pm
GNOME works around modal problem by making modal dialogs look different, like this:
What do you mean with modal problem?

erkinalp wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:31 pm
However, as all dialogs are modal on Windows, this will not work.
That is not true.

dizt3mp3r
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by dizt3mp3r » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:08 pm

Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
I am sorry Winter but that was all troll-ish rubbish. I can't be bothered to respond in detail to someone who is clearly looking for a battle. My point on focus still stands.

erkinalp
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by erkinalp » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:14 pm

Modals and regular dialogs are hard to distinguish on Windows.
-uses Ubuntu+GNOME 3 GNU/Linux
-likes Free (as in freedom) and Open Source Detergents
-favors open source of Windows 10 under GPL2

Fraizeraust
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by Fraizeraust » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:25 pm

erkinalp wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:14 pm
Modals and regular dialogs are hard to distinguish on Windows.
In reality they're not. In Windows, a modal dialog is a handle to a window which the user is forced to do a certain operation (interacting with it) to that dialog box before the user can switch between the owner dialog (which is a handle to a window that owns other dialogs).

A modeless dialog box, meaning a "regular" window, it's the opposite. You can switch between the owner dialog and other dialog boxes. An example of a modal dialog is the "Save" dialog.

Forever Winter
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Re: Aspects of Vista/7/8/10 that should NOT be ported to React

Post by Forever Winter » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:19 am

dizt3mp3r wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:08 pm
I am sorry Winter but that was all troll-ish rubbish. I can't be bothered to respond in detail to someone who is clearly looking for a battle. My point on focus still stands.
Honestly, if this is all you have to answer to a post that you do not like, you just should not answer at all. And just for your note, I have better things to do with my time than to provoke fights with random people in random internet forums.

Nonetheless, I try to explain my previous points in a bit more detail and in a way that is a bit more diplomatic:
Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
It is not the fault of the operating system, if you use software that displays password dialogs where they should not be in the first place.
Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
Probably not as big as installing a window hook that waits until your password dialog is created and starts sending messages to it.
If a properly designed program asks the user for a password or similar sensitive data, it does not just display its dialog on the main desktop. Instead it creates a new desktop solely for the purpose of displaying its dialog and show it there instead. Since there are only your own dialogs on your newly created desktop, there is no one who can steal your focus and compromise your password anymore. This also prevents security issues window messages and hooks mentioned above.
As you can see, the problem is not that Windows is unsecure in this regard. It contains the needed functionality to isolate sensitive parts of a program since at least NT 3.51. The problem is that most programs just do not use these functions, for whatever reason. In fact, your statement about Windows security being rubbish is just blaming Windows for the shortcomings of third party software.

Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
Maybe you should stop using an ancient version of Windows.
Let us go back to the previously mentioned program, that displays its password dialog on the default desktop. Imagine how you want to enter your password and in the moment you start typing, a dialog waiting for input is displayed by another program. Now this can be just by chance, but also it could be an attempt to steal your password. If it is an attack, it does not matter if your operating system brings the dialog to front and steal the focus of your password dialog, since the hostile program will just bring itself to front manually to ensure it steals the focus from your password dialog. The problem is, that you cannot really counter this without affecting all kinds of legitimate use.
If it is just by chance, the hostile program will likely not try to bring itself actively to the front. It will create its dialog to input user data and just let it where the operating system put it. If such a program comes to the front and steals the focus from your password dialog, you are likely using a Windows version not newer than Vista, since at least Vista+ don't bring applications requesting user input to front automatically. Instead it signals the request for input visually on the taskbar and waits for the user to switch to the requesting application itself.

Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
On superior systems, yes? You realize that Windows has something similar since eighteen years?
What you fail to see is that your superior systems are not superior because they do it better than Windows. They are superior in this point, because the applications that run on that systems are working with the operating system and the users, not against them. Windows has the ability to display messages in the notification area, that do not affect focus, z-order and so on since Windows 2000. You may not like this baloon messages, but this is just a cosmetic issue. One of the problems with your idea is that the system just does not know if a popup needs immediate user attention because, for example, the lsass service crashed and the system restarts in one minute or if it is just a notification from your e-mail client telling you of a new message that has arrived. This is something only the application knows and therefore it is necessary that the application takes care of sending its messages to the right place.
As you can see, again the problem is not that Windows does not contain functionality similar to your superior operating system in this regard. Again, the problem is that your programs just do not use this functionality. And just like in my first point, your statement boils down to blaming Windows for the shortcomings of third party software.

Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
What do you mean with modal problem?
Forever Winter wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 am
That is not true.
I have absolutely no clue how this both sentences are trollish or rubbish in any way.

erkinalp wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:14 pm
Modals and regular dialogs are hard to distinguish on Windows.
Thanks for clarifying it to me.

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